TV Stations and YouTube

Personally I think it's dead wrong. If I upload a video on my website, I'm saying that that video can be viewed on my website or by people who have embedded (should I allow it). Posting something online (on Youtube or anywhere else) does not give anyone the right to use that video how they see fit.

The nice thing about news footage is that (at least in the states) it pretty well firmly lands in the 5K and under mark per piece of footage, so small claims court is serious option. It costs next to nothing ($80?) to file a suit and bring someone to small claims court.

File a suit against both outlets for $4,900 (or whatever precedence you can locate). If you want to get really aggressive you can file a suit for potential loss of profits you could have made on the footage (but for that, unlike small claims, you'd need a lawyer's involvement which -probably- means money up front).

And then there's always Doc's reel suggestion. Options abound! :)
 
The big stations air them for two reasons. The first is that if someone really does have a problem with it they can always offer a small fee and it won't matter anymore. Easier to seek forgiveness and all that. The second is that they usually have a border that represents the Youtube video player, at least from what I remember from when I had TV and accidentally watched the news channels. That implies using the built in Youtube player, which is a technicality that could be allowed.
 
In the days before YT and downloads (when I was in news), if camcorder footage was used, it usually involved:
- Being paid a couple hundred dollars, especially if it was given exclusively to one station.
- A "Courtesy Mike Warren" super (the need for this is negated somewhat by your watermark).
- Sometimes interviewing and getting b roll of the person who shot the footage.

But of course, all the above takes time, effort and money- it's much easier and quicker to download it.

The YT Terms are clear, I think you should send them to the the stations' News Directors (in a Certified Letter, or whatever the Aussie equivalent is):

"You shall not download any Content unless you see a “download” or similar link displayed by YouTube on the Service for that Content. You shall not copy, reproduce, distribute, transmit, broadcast, display, sell, license, or otherwise exploit any Content for any other purposes without the prior written consent of YouTube or the respective licensors of the Content."

Since YT doesn't have a download link, I think it's clear that the stations are in violation by downloading.
At least Vimeo has a Download This Video button that the owner can disable.

With all the cases of the "little guy" being sued for using music in wedding vids, I think the little guy should take a stand against broadcasters using their footage without permission- I know I would.

At the very least, you're due a half-day freelance rate.

ie, either sue them or invoice them!
 
groveChuck said:
In the days before YT and downloads (when I was in news), if camcorder footage was used, it usually involved:
- Being paid a couple hundred dollars, especially if it was given exclusively to one station.
- A "Courtesy Mike Warren" super (the need for this is negated somewhat by your watermark).
- Sometimes interviewing and getting b roll of the person who shot the footage.
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This is my experience too, admittedly from over 30 years ago, and I was working for a company so didn't know the amounts being paid for TV clips.

With all the cases of the "little guy" being sued for using music in wedding vids, I think the little guy should take a stand against broadcasters using their footage without permission- I know I would.
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I'm not inclined to be bothered. I thought what they did was cheeky, but what got my back up was being told that I should not put anything on line if I didn't expect them to use it.

I wrote back the the producer: "I hope that you don’t really think that anything posted to YouTube is fair game for re-broadcasting."

His answer:

"I apologise for not thanking you for the vision. It was fantastic. Well done. You should be proud. I'm not going to get into a debate with you, because I don't feel there is a need to. We appreciate everything you have done. How many copies would you like?"


At the very least, you're due a half-day freelance rate.
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I doubt TV stations here would pay that much. They regularly advertise for people to send in videos and even have upload pages on their web sites with never any mention of payment being offered.
 
Terry_Lasater said:
It's not necessarily a stamp of approval of your technical achievement or aesthetic sensibilities that they would do such.
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Personally, I think the footage had a lot of problems, but I was working in the rain and trying to hold a plastic bag around the camera in extremely strong wind. But I also don't think it was any worse than most of the work done by the TV news camera people. Also, a third network (that didn't use the footage) went to the trouble of emailing me asking me to keep them in mind in the future.
 
His answer:

"I apologise for not thanking you for the vision. It was fantastic. Well done. You should be proud. I'm not going to get into a debate with you, because I don't feel there is a need to. We appreciate everything you have done. How many copies would you like?"
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wow. what a dick.
 
Mike Warren said:
Personally, I think the footage had a lot of problems, but I was working in the rain and trying to hold a plastic bag around the camera in extremely strong wind. But I also don't think it was any worse than most of the work done by the TV news camera people. Also, a third network (that didn't use the footage) went to the trouble of emailing me asking me to keep them in mind in the future.
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I'm not saying you didn't do a good job. Just trying to point out it was the exclusivity of an intriguing story that held their interest. In other words, they didn't have a news photographer there to cover it themselves.

Anyhow, the established path for news photographers in the U.S. is to start at a small market and work your way up - all along learning about sequences, nat sound breaks, etc and looking to the NPPA as your guide.

But, yeah, any station would be happy to take your spot news footage of an event they missed.
 
This has been discussed before, as noted, as recently as three months ago. I believe Deepfocus works in TV broadcasting, as I do, and he and I made pretty similar comments in the last thread. Read posts here.

Don't think you're going to sue them, because it won't get that far. Don't think they're going to write you a big check, because they won't. At the very most you'd get something out of the stringer footage pool ($100?), but I doubt that. The best thing is that they give you a copy, and they post a link on their website to your video, with your name next to it. That would be what I would push for.

Yes, it sucks that local broadcasters grab stuff like this without asking, even in large markets. Yes, it sucks that the legal limits are being completely pushed, and little guys are arguably being taken advantage of (what else is new), but it's the way of the present, and future, and your best bet is to run with it and see if they can do a little something for you in return, such as the copy and links.

Sounds like the producer you were talking to was having a crappy day. These people are often overworked and on short contracts, but most of them are just working stiffs like you and me trying to get through the hectic day with hundreds of e-mails, phones ringing off the hook, and reporters, anchors, AE's, ND's EP's and everyone else barking at them.

Mike Warren said:
I just wish one of them had offered me a job. :)
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Producers don't have that kind of power. But they can make good friends as they tend to make a lot of connections. However, go back to that other thread and read DeepFocus and my posts. Then come back and let me know if you're still interested.
 
I'm not going to get into a debate with you, because I don't feel there is a need to.
And you decide these things, after all...

We appreciate everything you have done.
Really?

How many copies would you like?"
Wow, buying you off with a copy of the air check... Their generosity knows no limits!

I still think he should talk to the News Director, get the station's official take-"What is your policy on downloading and using YT video?"

Then follow it with "Are you OK with me downloading your station's video and usung it for my projects and profit?"
 
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snowleopard said:
The best thing is that they give you a copy, and they post a link on their website to your video, with your name next to it. That would be what I would push for.
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100% agreed. Theyre not going to dig in their pockets if they can avoid it but...

Mike sorry I didnt see this sooner. Just wanted to tell you your rights in Australia - taking your footage from youtube is copyright infringement. Now that doesnt equate to bargaining a small fee for your work. Bottom line here is the producer has broken the law (criminal charges) and infringed your rights in the process i.e. open to being sued. Thats more than a few hundred bucks. In fact the copyright act amendments in 2006 made it easier to enforce your rights over copyright. Bottom line is, you could pursue this.... however - The other side of the coin is this - do you want to work in ENG? If so, pushing these guys isnt the way in the door which is why I agreed with snowleopard above. Australia has a small industry and most people tend to know everyone else. People talk. What you do from here is in your hands and no one else can make that decision for you.

Australian law does not require that you register the work in ANY way shape or form.
 
snowleopard said:
This has been discussed before, as noted, as recently as three months ago. I believe Deepfocus works in TV broadcasting, as I do, and he and I made pretty similar comments in the last thread. Read posts here.
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I read that yesterday when DeepFocus posted the link. That situation sounds much more serious than mine. I guess it's still playing out. Rick Burnett hasn't posed to the thread for a while.

Don't think you're going to sue them, because it won't get that far. Don't think they're going to write you a big check, because they won't. At the very most you'd get something out of the stringer footage pool ($100?), but I doubt that.
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I expect that most I'd get if I pushed them would be something like $20 - $50. Not worth the stress. As I said before, I only contacted them because I want a copy of the stories. One station just asked me for my address and said they'd post a disc out. I only became annoyed at the attitude of the producer from the other station.

Producers don't have that kind of power [offering a job]. But they can make good friends as they tend to make a lot of connections. However, go back to that other thread and read DeepFocus and my posts. Then come back and let me know if you're still interested.
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I doubt I'd want a job in news. When I was 14-17 I was all set to become a photojournalist, but life took me on a different path. I don't do any commercial video or photographic work now days, but I wouldn't say no to a bit weekend work, although I don't want it enough to go chasing work. :)
 
Noel Evans said:
Bottom line is, you could pursue this....
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I don't want to take this anywhere. I just wanted them to say thank you and send me a disc without making me sign a document saying I wouldn't use their video commercially. One station did just that.

however - The other side of the coin is this - do you want to work in ENG?
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Although it has a certain appeal, I'm probably a bit old for that now, and I understand the TV industry in Australia is not in particularly good shape as far as employment is concerned.

What you do from here is in your hands and no one else can make that decision for you.
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I was never going to do anything. I only posted as a matter of interest and for a bit of discussion.
 
My wife just came in and said she saw about 2 seconds of my croc footage on a promo for the TV news. This was on the station I had the disagreement with. I almost think they're trying to goad me. :)
 
Mike Warren said:
One of the News producers said to me "The footage was posted on You Tube, and your watermark was clearly visible in what went to air. If you did not want the public to show or use, it should not have been posted".
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Mike Warren said:
The other required I sign a form stating I would not use it for any commercial purposes. This is the same station where the producer thinks that anything on YouTube is fair game.
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Mike Warren said:
"I apologise for not thanking you for the vision. It was fantastic. Well done. You should be proud. I'm not going to get into a debate with you, because I don't feel there is a need to. We appreciate everything you have done. How many copies would you like?"
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This guy is a snide, sarcastic, genuine A-hole. Who cares how overworked or stressed he is? There's no excuse for this sort of attitude and ignorance.

I would LOVE to drag him into court. I envy you the (wasted) opportunity.
 
hi mike,
send them an invoice for the footage. down south the standard stringer fee is A$250.00 (if the footage is used on air)
emphasise that you retain copyright. if the footage is airworthy they will sell it to other news organisations. (leaving you out of the equation)

believe me you do not want a job in eng. i did it for years and would rather have my fingernails pulled out than go back to it.

cheers
 
ian dart said:
send them an invoice for the footage. down south the standard stringer fee is A$250.00 (if the footage is used on air)
emphasise that you retain copyright. if the footage is airworthy they will sell it to other news organisations. (leaving you out of the equation)
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I think that's probably way too high for this small town, and the footage is already meaningless. It only had any relevance for a few days after the capture.


believe me you do not want a job in eng. i did it for years and would rather have my fingernails pulled out than go back to it.
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LOL!

Well, I've received one of the promised discs so far.
 
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