Troy Director's Cut

karapetkov said:
The Iliad is one of the archetypal epics, name a few popcorn epics, please.
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It's an archetypical epic because scholars later decided it was so. It certainly wasn't seen as that at the time.

I have no idea how our own culture is going to be viewed after a couple of millennia, so I don't know exactly which bits of culture will be exalted -- but I can be confident in saying that something will be, and some of it will be what we might consider "popcorn" today.
 
David Jimerson said:
I find that highly unlikely. But elements of what we'd consider pop(corn) culture today certainly will be studied in the same way as Homer's epics.
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I know, I was being snarky.

Shakespeare too was "popcorn" in his time. He was a very successful playwright/actor/theater owner and made a lot of money. And his plays were written to make money.
 
There's a popcorn level to all of those, mentioned above.

But there were also a lot of other levels or layers to their work, rising above the popcorn [hehe, that would be a nice shot - Shakespeare, rising above the popcorn :laugh:].

There were a lot of other popcorn authors in the time of Homer, Shakespeare or Mozart, but noone remembers them.

Why?

Because they stayed at the popcorn level, they didn't go beyond that, they didn't search for a deeper meaning, message, etc.

That's why Shakespeare is Shakespeare, because he went beyond popcorn... far beyond :) ... ..... he went to get a couple of Cokes too :) :) :).

:2vrolijk_08:

Sorry about that, but I think you get the idea.

...

Please, don't get me wrong.

Popcorn is OK, it is a necessary evil that every filmmaker has to cope with

[especially if oversalted :P... OK, I'm stopping... ].

I wouldn't wanna be a popcorn-only filmmaker... I dream of a deeper meaning too... and dreaming is free, right? [and sometimes - very profitable :)].
 
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In a few hundred years, scholars will be debating whether or not there was really one man named Joe Esterhaus, who wrote all those screenplays...
 
karapetkov said:
There's a popcorn level to all of those, mentioned above.

But there were also a lot of other levels or layers to their work, rising above the popcorn [hehe, that would be a nice shot].

There were a lot of other popcorn authors in the time of Homer, Shakespeare or Mozart, but noone remembers them.

Why?

Because they stayed at the popcorn level, they didn't go beyond that, they didn't search for a deeper meaning, message etc.

That's why Shakespeare is Shakespeare, because he went beyond popcorn... way beyond... ..... he went to get a couple of Cokes too :)

:2vrolijk_08:

Sorry about that, but I think you get the idea.

...

Please, don't get me wrong.

Popcorn is OK, it is a necessary evil that every filmmaker has to cope with

[especially if oversalted :P... OK, I'm stopping... ].

I wouldn't wanna be a popcorn-only filmmaker... I dream of a deeper meaning too... and dreaming is free, right? [and sometimes - very profitable :)].
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Well, still, they were considered popcorn at the time. I'm sure "learned" people of the day didn't think they'd be destined for posterity.

Too, who knows if there weren't epics which made Homer look like a limerick writer? I'd wager that he survived when others didn't precisely (or at least in significant part) because his epics were popular, and people remembered them. People remember what they like. I'm pretty sure there are a whole lot more people out there who can tell you who played third-string shortstop for the '56 Dodgers than who know the basic plot points of Fathers and Sons. That's just the way people work, the way people have always worked, and the way they always will.

The point is, in Homer's day, epics like the Iliad were popular entertainment which filled exactly the same position in their culture as blockbuster movies (among other things) do for us today. We have no way of knowing what people in the future will consider gems from own culture. If you could flash forward and find out, it's very possible that you might be appalled. Who knows? Maybe some future university will offer a major in deconstructing Steven Segal movies. I would doubt it, but there's no way to know.
 
What about the religious overtones of Homer's work?

Not a component (gods be praised) of any 'blockbuster,' today.
 
The Passion of the Christ? The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe?

Besides, Hellenic culture of the day was much more religious in day-to-day life than ours currently is. It's a reflection of that, as popular entertainment usually is.
 
Not necessarily the movies, but it would not be at all surprising if Superman, Batman, and Spider-man are seen as literary or cultural archetypes in their own right and studied accordingly.
 
David Jimerson said:
The Passion of the Christ? The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe?
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I don't think that most of the audience went for the Christian aspect, of Lion. If not for the media froo-haw over it, I doubt most viewers would even have made the connection. Although it *is* there.

I think most people who went to see Passion went for snuff-value. Not to deny the religious basis of that, either, though.

Those two are anomalies.

I sure hope.
 
David Jimerson said:
Well, still, they were considered popcorn at the time. I'm sure "learned" people of the day didn't think they'd be destined for posterity.

Too, who knows if there weren't epics which made Homer look like a limerick writer? I'd wager that he survived when others didn't precisely (or at least in significant part) because his epics were popular, and people remembered them. People remember what they like. I'm pretty sure there are a whole lot more people out there who can tell you who played third-string shortstop for the '56 Dodgers than who know the basic plot points of Fathers and Sons. That's just the way people work, the way people have always worked, and the way they always will.

The point is, in Homer's day, epics like the Iliad were popular entertainment which filled exactly the same position in their culture as blockbuster movies (among other things) do for us today. We have no way of knowing what people in the future will consider gems from own culture. If you could flash forward and find out, it's very possible that you might be appalled. Who knows? Maybe some future university will offer a major in deconstructing Steven Segal movies. I would doubt it, but there's no way to know.
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Popcorn movies are: watch and forget... While the Iliad was something more: it was considered an honor to know it by heart and there was even a kind of people who made a living out of reciting passages of it "professionally" :) - I believe they were called rhapsodes.

It was a respected, almost holy scripture, much like the Bible... come to think of it, it's just like the Bible, but this is another [off]topic and a long one...

The ancient Greeks regarded it not only as fun, but also as a record of their national memory and pride, a part of their identity. It also described their religious system and general view of the world. And it was quite a view...

I understand what you mean and I agree, there is a popcorn element in the picture, but I disagree that it is just popcorn... it's much more.

So, please don't overpopcornalize something that the centuries have proved to be unpopcornalizable in the first place:Drogar-Happy(DBG):.
 
Sad Max said:
What about the religious overtones of Homer's work?

Not a component (gods be praised) of any 'blockbuster,' today.
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HUH????????

Dude, wait till you see my essay on the right-wing-ed-ness of "KNOCKED UP." That **** is EVERYWHERE. They just hide it better now :)
 
Mark Harris said:
I know, I was being snarky.

Shakespeare too was "popcorn" in his time. He was a very successful playwright/actor/theater owner and made a lot of money. And his plays were written to make money.
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I agree. I often get into arguments when I suggest the guy wasn't exactly highbrow. I don't really like his stuff too much. It's ok, but...
 
karapetkov said:
Popcorn movies are: watch and forget... While the Iliad was something more: it was considered an honor to know it by heart and there was even a kind of people who made a living out of reciting passages of it "professionally" :) - I believe they were called rhapsodes.

It was a respected, almost holy scripture, much like the Bible... come to think of it, it's just like the Bible, but this is another [off]topic and a long one...

The ancient Greeks regarded it not only as fun, but also as a record of their national memory and pride, a part of their identity. It also described their religious system and general view of the world. And it was quite a view...

I understand what you mean and I agree, there is a popcorn element in the picture, but I disagree that it is just popcorn... it's much more.

So, please don't overpopcornalize something that the centuries have proved to be unpopcornalizable in the first place:Drogar-Happy(DBG):.
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Look, all I'm saying is what it was considered to be . . . at the time -- not the profundity that was discovered in it (or ascribed to it) later on.

And also that something you might consider "watch and forget" today may well be as revered in 2000 years. Posterity is funny that way.
 
David Jimerson said:
Look, all I'm saying is what it was considered to be . . . at the time -- not the profundity that was discovered in it (or ascribed to it) later on.

And also that something you might consider "watch and forget" today may well be as revered in 2000 years. Posterity is funny that way.
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OK, I have nothing against watch-and-forget movies... I watch and forget them quite often :). And it's OK.

You say - it was considered popcorn then. That's correct. But it was also considered national epic and even ideology...

Would you regard Batman as a national hero of the US, for example?... Don't think so...

What I insist on, is that the Iliad is a non-popcorn material and popcornalizing it is almost a crime.

That's the source of my anger against Troy. It really wakes the Dark Side in me. AArgh :).

A movie based on the Iliad could be amazing on each level: popcorn and over. And the authors of Troy threw that possibility away and sold its potential cheaply.

It is a surprise that the scriptwriter of Troy is Daniel Benioff. He wrote the 25th Hour and it was great!

Well, anyway: different people, different tastes... maybe I just want something else from a movie about Troy, something more Kubrick-like, for example.

Which proves again that you can't make everyone happy, and maybe you don't need to...
 
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