TRELBY: Trelby - free, open source screenlay software

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Well 'undo' as a concept has been around since the 1976... before this time, the way to interact with a computer was via punch cards, and as such the 'need' for undo was... well... not really necessary as the systems typically were not 'interactive'. But IBM research and Xerox PARC changed all that... (for those who wanted to know where 'control-Z' for 'undo' came from... or for Apple Cmd-Z...

-------
Behavioral Issues in the Use of Interactive Systems, a 1976 research report by Lance A. Miller and John C. Thomas of IBM, noted that "It would be quite useful to permit users to 'take back' at least the immediately preceding command (by issuing some special 'undo' command)."[1] The programmers at the Xerox PARC research center assigned the keyboard shortcut Ctrl-Z to the undo command, which became a crucial feature of text editors and word processors in the personal computer era.[2]

Multi-level undo commands were introduced in the 1980s, allowing the users to take back a series of actions, not just the most recent one.[2] AtariWriter, a word-processing application introduced in 1982, featured undo. NewWord, another word-processing program released by NewStar in 1984, had an unerase command.[2] IBM's VisiWord also had an undelete command.
--------

So I'd say for an 'editor' qua 'editor'... undo would be a elemental feature...

The only editor I know of these days that does not have an UNDO command is the Unix 'sed' command, which is an 'editor' which works on streams of text, and it is given a set of editor commands on a command line, or a file with a set of commands. However, 'sed' does not edit 'interactively', but allows for a large set of files to be operated on in 'batch mode'.

Typical modern user weenies don't know about such things and often use an operating system like Windows that has a pygmy of a command shell interface, or never heard of 'bash' under Mac OS X, whine to high heaven about having to do repetitive operations on files via 'windows' only accesses.

Of course, since the 'trelby' program was written in Python, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the originals developers used VI or VIM to edit their Python code, and I'll be even more doughnuts to more dollars, that they used 'u' command in VI at least once during their development activities before trelby public beta ever saw the light of day.

Of course... perhaps i'm showing my lack of editing wizardry, and the developers, like the myths about Mozart, just conceived the program and wrote it out straight away in one setting with absolutely no mistakes ever.

My 'beef' with Trelby is similar in nature to many Open Source packages is that they require a army of 'libraries' and 'specialty tools' which often negate any benefit of using a 'portable' interpreted language like Python, or even C, or C++ which generates 'native' code, but often projects require 10's or 100's of 'libraries' and filter tools that all have to be compiled before the first line of 'app' code is processed.

In particular the non-use of generic libraries requiring that Mac OS X support 'languish' because some package that is on Mac OS X, isn't the 'right' version... I've sort of forgotten which, but if the point of using Python as an implementation language was to 'ease' portability... that sure didn't happen by using specific non-ported libraries.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Well 'undo' as a concept has been around since the 1976... before this time, the way to interact with a computer was via punch cards, and as such the 'need' for undo was... well... not really necessary as the systems typically were not 'interactive'. ...

I started out programming on punch cards, mainframes at the local university; then programming interactive Star Trek games in BASIC on braille style ticker tape using teletype machines that interfaced to the mainframes. It was a funky world for programming then.

 

[Gary Huff]

"Undo" is such a basic-level function in modern software that not being aware it was not currently implemented would totally throw someone off, especially someone who is simply trained from DECADES of having it available that could cause problems. I can totally understand why the lack of it might be a deal-breaker, and to come here and whine about someone pointing it out (though, Randall, you were a bit of an asshole about it in your post on the Google Groups page) is just sour grapes at best, and laughably immature at worst.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Calling me an "asshole" and "laughably immature" is a bit of a strong judgment call Gary; I guess I will leave it for anybody to decide by looking at what I said.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/trelby/KZ_hZrABE8w
Bottom line, I felt really duped into installing Trelby, thinking of course it would have Undo, then later discovered it lacked Undo (present in every other editor on the planet), when it is advertised on their site as a "feature rich screenwriting program!" I pointed that out on their forum. Apparently the beta, version 2.2 yet to be released to the public, will have Undo, so that is ultimately a good thing. I still maintain it was grossly irresponsible of the Trelby developers to release a version of Trelby advertised as full featured blah blah blah when it lacked a most basic feature expected of any editor, from command line terminal console editors of the 60s to full GUI editors today. Even a simple Notepad editor has undo, and the Trelby programmers could not put that in the early version of Trelby released to the public? If they choose not to, they should make it clear on their home page (as I suggested to them) that their editor lacks Undo (kind of a critical feature for writers don't you think?).

"Undo" is such a basic-level function in modern software that not being aware it was not currently implemented would totally throw someone off, especially someone who is simply trained from DECADES of having it available that could cause problems. I can totally understand why the lack of it might be a deal-breaker, and to come here and whine about someone pointing it out (though, Randall, you were a bit of an asshole about it in your post on the Google Groups page) is just sour grapes at best, and laughably immature at worst.

 

[Gary Huff]

Calling me an "asshole" and "laughably immature" is a bit of a strong judgment call Gary; I guess I will leave it for anybody to decide by looking at what I said.

I wasn't referring to you with the "laughably immature" comment, that was for the poster who jumped in here from the Trelby groups. I referred to you specifically as a bit of an asshole, mostly because of this comment:

Wow. That is sad. I was so excited to use Trelby. No more. I have to delete it off my system then, revert back to Final Draft. I just can not think of even one other edtior (text, word processor, html editor, screenwriting software) other than Trelby that does not have an undo feature.

And I understand, and feel like you didn't intend for it to come off that way, but I can see how saying that started the whole bad vibes. Which is why I only said "a bit" of an asshole, not full blown. :beer:

 

[ulisses]

nice software...

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

..And I understand, and feel like you didn't intend for it to come off that way, but I can see how saying that started the whole bad vibes. Which is why I only said "a bit" of an asshole, not full blown. :beer:

I will claim for my defense the ungodly heat of late.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Well 'undo' as a concept has been around since the 1976... before this time, the way to interact with a computer was via punch cards, and as such the 'need' for undo was... well... not really necessary as the systems typically were not 'interactive'. ...

I started out programming on punch cards, mainframes at the local university; then programming interactive Star Trek games in BASIC on braille style ticker tape using teletype machines that interfaced to the mainframes. It was a funky world for programming then.

Truth be told... I hated computers at the time, ca. 1974 or so... but my friends all gave me this 'your smart, you should do computers'... so I took a IBM 360 assembly language class. I hated punch cards, I hated waiting 3-4 days to get my program deck back, with a 2 inch listing of 1) errors in Job Control Language, 2) program syntax errors, 3) core dump of page after page of hex numbers.

I said 'poo poo it' to that s*%t...

My epiphany came with interactive terminals, teletype, but at least it had a 'backspace' for correcting minor typos, and the PDP 11 running RSTS had a BASIC language interpreter that would at least immediately spit out error indications.

As for Trelby, I was interested for a moment, but I think I'm moving in the direction of the 'fountain' project that John August seems to be developing along with his 'minions'... Fountain is a specification of format, such that one runs a 'fountain interpreter over the text, the interpreter generates the 'correctly formatted' page. If you've ever heard of 'roff' or 'nroff', popular text formatting programs of yore, one of the things one could do is write 'macros' that would do a lot of formatting operations. It was not WYSIWYG in any sense of the word... but I think it is much easier to write 'fluidly' once the macros one is using have been 'memorized'...

The 'scrippets' widget that is now available here for formatting in a somewhat reasonable 'screenplay' format, is a subset of Fountain.

So Fountain 'input' example.

EXT PARKING LOT - DAY

FRED, 20's, sits in his delapedated Chevy opens his car door, as GEORGE, 20, pulls up in a beat up Ford.

FRED
(angry)
Where've you been.

George flip him off.

Resulting 'script format' via 'snippet' plugin on this blog.

[scrippet]
EXT PARKING LOT - DAY

FRED, 20's, sits in his delapedated Chevy opens his car door, as GEORGE, 20, pulls up in a beat up Ford.

FRED
(angry)
Where've you been.

George flip him off.
[/scrippet]

The 'benefit' being one can write scripts with any 'reasonable' editing tool, and can allow for simpler editors to be used on limited devices like iPad/Android.

And given the simplicity of the 'scrippet' plugin, this allows for one to produce reasonably formatted script pages on blogs, which are horrendous for the most part otherwise.
(It really takes some doing for me to 'read' script chunks that people post on blogs that don't have 'scrippets'...

The alternative would be to embed some PDF or the like of the script pages which is a total hassle...

 

[Gary Huff]

I really like Fountain, even though I haven't particularly used it yet.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

I really like Fountain, even though I haven't particularly used it yet.

There's a tool, "Highland Beta" for Mac OS X which you can get from here

It is a pretty simple tool that can take 'plain text' files and spit out PDF's or Final Draft XML based FDX files.

The 'theory' seems to be sort of the 'unix' style which is create a format, then create a set of 'small tools' to process the format. One can create a WYSIWYG interface... but one need not commit to that level of programming to get something out the door.

I'm interested in it for processing scripts for 'scheduling' purposes... Celtx 'works' but is somewhat awkward... and of course if I were a real pro I'd be buying some commercial package...

I'm also checking out the scenesynchronize.com 'freebee'... but that requires one be 'on line', and I'm looking for 'online' independence... (one of the negatives of Celtx...).

I think for the 'independent filmmaker', especially the 'writer/director' type filmmaker, Final Draft is too much of one thing... the 'package' needs to be 'scriptwriting/formatting' + 'scheduling/budgeting' + 'day shooting materials/production log' + 'post-production work flow documtation'...

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

I saw a lib / plugin about a week ago as i was re-installing xubuntu, a lib for emacs, to do something similar to that Fountain project. I like the idea on a certain level of just using a simple fricken editor (that has undo of course) or word processor, or at least having that option, to write screenplay material, the crunch it into a blackbox (Fountain) for cleanly format it as screenplay.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

I saw a lib / plugin about a week ago as i was re-installing xubuntu, a lib for emacs, to do something similar to that Fountain project. I like the idea on a certain level of just using a simple fricken editor (that has undo of course) or word processor, or at least having that option, to write screenplay material, the crunch it into a blackbox (Fountain) for cleanly format it as screenplay.

Emacs... no... never... especially not emacs lisp... I'll take a sledge hammer to my computer before using emacs...

But just to clarify, Fountain is the 'format spec', and tools such as Highland that I referenced above, manipulate the text files into PDF or FDX, at the moment. There is a Xcode (Mac OS X development environment) project which demonstrates how to write a processing tool.

Since it is an Xcode project, presumably one could produce IOS or Mac OS based applications without too much trouble.

And apropos the 'undo' tangent of this thread... the beta app Highland.... drum roll... has an 'undo' function... (It's sort of part of the standard widgetry that almost all Mac (and Windows for that matter) applicaitons have.).

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Okay I get it now. I have dvxuser set to show posts in a linear manner, maybe I should switch to threaded view to avoid confusions like that.

I wasn't referring to you with the "laughably immature" comment, that was for the poster who jumped in here from the Trelby groups. I referred to you specifically as a bit of an asshole, mostly because of this comment:

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Emacs... no... never... especially not emacs lisp... I'll take a sledge hammer to my computer before using emacs......

I am not a fan either of emacs, just that I noticed it has a plugin for formatting text to screenplay format which I found interesting. But i am definitely interesting in this other notion being bantered around here-- Fountain, Highland (does it come with a coupon for a free mug of Scottish ale or grog?).

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

I am not a fan either of emacs, just that I noticed it has a plugin for formatting text to screenplay format which I found interesting. But i am definitely interesting in this other notion being bantered around here-- Fountain, Highland (does it come with a coupon for a free mug of Scottish ale or grog?).

I may start an independent thread on Fountain, but the naming convention follows street names in the Hollywood area.

So here's the 'name origin' for Fountain...

----
...when Johnny Carson asked Bette Davis for advice on "the best way an aspiring starlet could get into Hollywood," Ms. Davis replied without hesitation, "Take Fountain!"[3]
---

Fountain is an 'east/west' street parallel to Santa Monica and Sunset Blvd, both of which run from essentially Downtown LA to The Beach, and as such are usually clogged with traffic...

Fountain on the other hand is less trafficked...

Highland is also a street in LA... that runs North/South in the Hollywood area...

So, if you ever do end up in LA, even just for visits, take these names and use them as 'alternate' pathways to get around...

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

...when Johnny Carson asked Bette Davis for advice on "the best way an aspiring starlet could get into Hollywood," Ms. Davis replied without hesitation, "Take Fountain!"[3].

ROTFL. That is funny!

 

[Fade In]

I like what it does NOT have--- the almost unchangeable dark gray/black header of FADE IN software that I asked that developer to change but he refused to; so glad i did not buy FADE IN now that trelby exists.

Hello Randall,

Sorry to address this so late, but I certainly don't want you to have gotten the impression that any feature request/suggestion was refused. In response to requests from users to be able to customize the editing window background color, that user interface preference was introduced quite some time ago. Additional customization requests/suggestions are still under consideration for potential inclusion in future updates.

 

[Randall_Oelerich]

Hello Randall, Sorry to address this so late, but I certainly don't want you to have gotten the impression that any feature request/suggestion was refused. In response to requests from users to be able to customize the editing window background color, that user interface preference was introduced quite some time ago. Additional customization requests/suggestions are still under consideration for potential inclusion in future updates.

Yes I know the background page color can be changed. What I dislike about FADE IN is the forced dark window titlebar/menubar/navpanel scheme. For me it is an aesthetically poor choice to force on users, it is better left to the operating system that normally controls via user preferences the window titles/menus. I just downloaded the latest edition of FADEIN for Windows 7 and the best I could do was change the 'User Interface' scheme slider to its lightest setting for 'Lighter' but still there is that forced charcoal gray color scheme for the window title, open file tab, Format/Chars/Location, and Navigator panel. Why is the software so obsessed with that dark color scheme (charcoal gray, which last i checked is still a dark color scheme-- even when attempting to customizing the user interface to the lightest range of 'Lighter'?)

You would sell so many more copies of FADE IN if you just ditched that forced dark color scheme. Look a the commercial competition-- Movie Magic Screenwriter, Final Draft; and Trelby which of course is open source. None of them use a dark color scheme. You can go with the dark scheme to stand out as different, but consider that there is probably a reason the very successful Movie Magic and Final Draft, the two industry standards, do not use a dark color scheme. Beyond the aesthetics, it is physically more fatiguing on the eyes of the writer to have that higher contrast of the lighter white 'paper' (page) juxtaposed with the gray.

All the above said, program FADE IN as you wish, it is your software. I am just one potential customer (and I would buy your software if it just did not have that forced dark gray user interface).