Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

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I'm in pre-production for a short and trying to figure out lighting problems.

The film takes place in a Voice-Over studio with two actors - one on each side of a large soundproof window which seperates the booth from the mix studio.

My first problem is how to achieve reverse angles where BOTH rooms must be seen - especially over-the-shoulder - without the camera being seen in the reflection. The obvious solutions are to eiher kill ALL the lights in the room where the camera is located and forget about over the shoulder angles OR move the camera at such an extreme angle so it's off axis enough to be out of the refelction, also elminating over the shoulder shots. Essentially, this is like one those "prisoner visiting room" scenes except my lighting has to be moody and low key. One thing which makes this tricky is that each actor will be about 6 feet from the glass.

Ideas anyone?

Also, in general, what number and kind of lights should I plan for? This is probably a stupid question but do dp's ever use dimmers to adjust their lights oris it always add/subtract diffusion and/or wattage? I guess almost all lights change color temp when dimming (ruining Whit Balance) but I was just curious.

I'm contemplating two approaches:

Pre-lighting BOTH rooms and using 2 cameras
OR
Using just one camera and lighting just one room completely, with minimal lighting for reverses

Which would be the best approach? It looks like I'd need, at a minumum, 2 keys, 2 fills, 2 rims plus accent lighting for each room, right? The lighting should be moody and low key, with dark-ish backgrounds.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Consider a polarizing filter to kill the reflections on the glass, might make your setups a lot easier... can you test it first before shooting? Will you have access to the room?
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Use flags to create shadow over the glass especially where your camera is appearing. Don't let any direct light hit the glass and you'll be halfway there. If you don't care about reflections but want the camera to dissappear, you could try disguising the place the camera appears with some art direction, like putting a practical lamp the other side of the glass over the cam reflection...
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Polarizer works best at about 33 degree angle to the reflecting surface.

You could hide behind black duvetyne and cutout a circle just so the lens can take a peek.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Depending on how strong the reflection is as well, you could always setup the camera's frame, press record and walk away and let the scene happen. On a movie I recently helped with we had such a problem and that's all we did. The camera was small enough and obscure enough in the reflection you couldn't see it at all.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Thank you all.

Responding to your suggestions:

The polarizer sounds like a good one, though the main purpose of the reverse angles will be over the shoulder and more or less perpendicular to the glass - 30 degrees (as suggested) won't really work. I will have very limited access to the space as it's a functioning studio and will be able to test lighting ahead of time.

It sounds like hiding the camera and/or placing well lit objects on the other side of the glass is my best option.

With limted ceiling heights to work with and an interest in creating controlled pools of light on each actor in each of these rooms, any suggestions on instruments and wattage - a light scheme? Would I use something like a snooted 650 for circular keylights then fill with heavily diffused soft boxes? Egg crates for control? I'm really going for that 'late night at the radio station' look.



Steve
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Get some mini par track lights from www.stage-n-studio.com, and a 4' piece of track from your local hardware store. Clamp the track to the ceiling, and aim your lights for dramatic pools. If positioned correctly, you can get a front and a backlight on the same track. The mini pars come with gell frames, and you can even get barndoors for them. If you're using tight angles, you don't have to be off axis very much to frame out the camera's reflection. Hanging some black duvy, or using props to hide reflections were also good suggestions. If you don't have access tothe room for tests. set up some mirrors anywhere to duplicate the room and practice avoiding reflections.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

The mini-par track lights is a good suggestion. Also consider some Lowell Pro lights. They are only 250 watt but actually put out a lot of light and are small and easy to work with. You should be able to create your 'pools' of light with those, barndoors and black foil. As far as dimmers, I use them all the time. I know other DP's that refuse to use them. Never use one for your key unless you white balance to it after you have set the intensity you want. Otherwise the color temperature is going to be too warm. I use dimmers for hairlights, kickers, background, and fill all the time. I like a slightly different color temp to help shape and separate. But that's just me. Good luck.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Another thing that can help is to have a hotter spot on the part of the frame where you see the camera's reflection. It'll take away the visibility dramatically - and as Thinspirit said, if you just leave the camera where it is, and duck out of the reflection's field of view, you can get away with a lot more. That way too, you still get reflections (which you may want) you just don't get the *camera's* reflection.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

polarizer filters work with polarized light. The sun is a polarized light source. Incandescent lights are not polarized. They can be made pola with a polarizing sheet of film placed over it. But you will loose about 2 stops of light on the fixture and another 2 stops of light with the pola on the camera.
You will be suprized I think by how fast the camera can get out of view by moving over to the side and getting your shot from an angle. then control reflections with black cloth.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Wow! Thanks guys! All inncredibly helpful information. I really apreciate the advice.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

One more thing...I went to http://www.stage-n-studio.com/cat_main.htm. Is the Micro-Par the fixture you were referring to? If so, I was wondering at 75W if there's going to be enough light from them to act as either a a Key or back light?

Would you lean towward flood or spot PAR lamps?

Thansk again.
 
Re: Trcky lighting problem: GLASS WINDOW?

Don't try and light for two cameras, the idea alone gives me a headache!

Set up the shot, keep as much light off the wall behind the camera as possible, and tent the camera/operator in black fabric.

A polo filter will only cut the reflection of the talent, not yourself because as stated above it will cut out anything at an angle. You would never see yourself at an angle, only straight on - rendering the polo useless for cutting out your reflection.

-J
 
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