Transfer Time for P2 to HDD

H

hvx_germanboy

Well-known member
I am getting a little confused on this, but need your help here:
we are making a documentary and i will take care of copying the data with the help of a laptop(with PCMCIA-slot) to an external HDD.

Knowing that the maximum datarate in WRITING to P2 is 100Mbit/s would make me think that JUST FOR COPYING-TIME there is no difference between a external HDD with USB2 (max. 480 Mbit/s) and a firewire 800 (800Mbit/s) ?? (or am i wrong and reading is faster?)

Am i right with this, and the FW 800 makes just sense for the EDITING performance, or can the P2 card been read "faster" then 100Mbit/s in the PCMCIA-slot??

I am sorry if this sounds maybe confusing, but i am just looking for the fastest Laptop/PCMCIA-SLOT/EXTERNAL HDD - SETUP, to make sure that i can be as fast as possible when copying the files...!

I would be also very curious to know your times for copying 8gig P2 cards to a HDD, maybe in a setup like mine, with laptop and external HDD(please write which cable you use...usb, FW400/800?).

Thanks very much for helping in an urgent case...!:Drogar-Smoke(DBG):
 
Last edited:
MikeCurtis said:
check out barefeats.com, they have lots of throughput relevant articles
Click to expand...
Thanks for your help Mike,

but maybe i was too quick, i am in europe here and wanna go the PC path, think barefeats is mre for mac...thanks anyway..anyone else please?
 
hvx_germanboy said:
Am i right with this, and the FW 800 makes just sense for the EDITING performance, or can the P2 card been read "faster" then 100Mbit/s in the PCMCIA-slot??
Click to expand...
The card can read at up to 640 megabits per second. Theoretically if you had an FW800 drive that could truly sustain 80 megabytes (640 megabits) per second, you should get incrediby fast offloads; a 4gb card could potentially offload in 50 seconds.

I have a G-RAID FW800 drive and it's nowhere near that speed though, it sustains writing at about 47 megabytes per second or something like that. So it would take some serious RAID to sustain 80 megabytes per second, you'd probably need at least three drives in the RAID for that speed.

I am sorry if this sounds maybe confusing, but i am just looking for the fastest Laptop/PCMCIA-SLOT/EXTERNAL HDD - SETUP, to make sure that i can be as fast as possible when copying the files...!
Click to expand...
Well, FW800 or SATA is going to be the connection you want to look at; but again, it depends on the speed of the drive. Most small drives handle around 30 megabytes per second, which is below FW400 and USB2 speeds. A G-RAID will be faster, but not night-and-day faster; I think I offloaded a 4gb card in about 2.5 minutes to my G-RAID, versus about 3.5 minutes to the laptop internal drive.
 
Hey Barry,

thanks for your answer, we cant use a raid in this case, but there is a maxtor that we are looking at (called "T14W500") which has fw800 and goes with 7.200 RPM with a buffer cache of 16mb.

But the 2nd problem i seem to run into is, that there seems to be no laptop with pcmcia (type II) AND Firewire800, which is really strange...if someone finds one, please let me know!

It looks like this setup cant be done..unfortunatly....!

"I have a G-RAID FW800 drive and it's nowhere near that speed though, it sustains writing at about 47 megabytes per second or something like that. So it would take some serious RAID to sustain 80 megabytes per second, you'd probably need at least three drives in the RAID for that speed."
I assume that this is not a laptop, or you connect your HVX to the laptop via usb?

47 megabytes sounds really to slow, if im not wrong, this would mean that its actually slower with FW800 then usb2 would be..!?!

Thanks a lot barry...!
 
Don't confuse the connection's transfer rate with the drive's transfer rate. Most hard disks aren't capable of sustained transfers above about 30 megabytes per second (240 megabits). A few can get faster but not sustained minimums. You'll see lots of "peak" transfer rates of maybe 50 megabytes per second or so, but the thing that counts is sustained minimum write speed.

As for FW800, I don't know that I've ever found that on a PC laptop. PCs typically have a 4-pin firewire port, you usually only find FW800 on the Mac laptops.

I just got a new laptop that is ideal for HVX work, I think. It has all the necessary connections; it has a PCMCIA slot and a firewire port and an SD card reader and an ExpressCard slot. I'm adding an ExpressCard->FW800 adapter to use my G-RAID with it. You want a laptop that has both PCMCIA and ExpressCard so that you can use the workflow you're talking about. ExpressCard would let you use either SATA or FW800.
 
I am using eSATA in my expresscard slot. I offload my p2 cards to it. 6 gigs takes about 3 minutes. 8 gigs 4 minutes or so, etc, etc. About 30 seconds a gig on average.
Jason
 
Thanks Barry and Jason,

i was indeed a bit confused about the numbers,
i found some test for the writing speed, and it looks like the maxtor one touch III is one of the fastest in FW800 (56 MBit/s), nearly as fast as the eSATA they tested there...(http://hardware.thgweb.de/2006/09/19/seagate_500_gb/page6.html)

So i assume that the same HDD would write much slower in USB2 minimum, i found most of the other USB-connected drives in the 30MB range...so it would indeed be quite fast...i dont know if you can tell me which laptop you got barry, it sounds like you have a PCMCIA AND an Express-card slot, where you can just ad a FW800/SATA adapter..right?

Sorry to sound primitive, i am not so bad with computers, but the whole thing made me feel a little lost, as i thought id have to find a laptop with FW800 AND PCMCIA(for the p2), or a Laptop with 2 different PCMCIA-slots(to put a FW800 Adapter in one of them), which both dont exist to my knowledge...!
 
Barry got, a sony with a 13" screen. a core 2 duo 2.33 (I believe).
It does have both pcmcia and expresscard, you are right.
He mentioned it in a Canopus thread, where I was asking about laptops :)

Mine is an acer 9805. 20.1" screen, core duo 2.16. also has pcmcia and expresscard. I use the expresscard for eSATA.

Jason
 
Thanks a lot Jason,

ill try to find a good laptop with both, pcmcia and expresscard..sometimes its just depressing in europe that we have to pay a lot of more money for soft-and hardware...i think its even hard to find a expresscard/FW800-adapter here..but i wount give up before i got it!...!

Thanks however, its great that you are working with edius too, ill order my editing station with broadcast and probably the NX(to output mostly CC from After effects to monitor..!)...how do you do your post Jason?
 
Well, very slowly right now:) I have just had all of this equipment for a week now. I have never used Edius before now, so I am just tinkering around learning. But as far as workflow and raw power, Edius is amazing, and I am finding there to be plenty of output options as well.

Jason

here is a fw800 expresscard for ya. I believe b&h ships worldwide, so check it out. I am using this exact same brand for my eSATA expresscard. It was a good deal cheaper at newegg though (where I got it)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=437091&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

100 bucks
Jason
 
Yep, Sony SZ-340.

I also found I could configure a Gateway with the appropriate gear, but some of the reviews on the Gateway systems said they were slower than they should be, so I passed on it.

Mine's only a 2.00ghz Core 2 Duo, I didn't spring for the top-of-the-line processor because it'd only be about 15% faster but 50% more expensive. The 2.00 seemed like the sweet spot. And it's plenty fast enough to play P2 Viewer 1080/60i footage full-screen in realtime.

The key elements in my shopping were, in no particular order:
1) dual-layer DVD
2) firewire port
3) SD card slot for scene files and metadata
4) PCMCIA slot
5) Core 2 Duo processor
6) small & lightweight
7) ExpressCard slot (for eSATA and FW800 purposes)

I found a few that fit most requirements; the Sony was the best fit overall. The SD card reader actually fits in the ExpressCard slot so that's not absolutely ideal but it's not bad, and I could always get a USB SD card reader if necessary.

FW port was necessary for DV Rack HD, and the Sony offers a 4-pin connector so no worries about blowing up the firewire port. PCMCIA was mandatory for P2 card offloading; ExpressCard for FW800/eSATA (and any other new & wonderful thing that comes along). I wanted Core 2 Duo so it'd be fast enough for realtime viewing/monitoring/capture/editing, and the Core 2 supports a future 64-bit OS whereas the Core Duo doesn't.

And, the whole thing being $1,000 less than a MacBook Pro didn't hurt either! :)

That said, I probably spent more than necessary because I wanted it small & light since I do so much traveling. You might be able to configure another system for less.

Sony, Acer, Toshiba, Fujitsu, and Gateway all offered ExpressCard and PCMCIA in the same computer, IIRC.
 
As far as Ramjet's expresscard adapter, that's a 54mm. The Sony I got has a 34mm ExpressCard slot, same as on the Macbooks. You'd want a 34mm card, and there are a few out there.
 
From Barry's list:
1 = yes
2 = yes
3 = yes
4 = yes
5 = Core duo 2.16ghz
6 = definitely not! Mine is huge. 18 pounds. I didn't want a tiny screen, becuase I am currently using it as my one and only editing station, with a dual monitor setup.
7 = yes

As for core duo vs. core 2 duo. Not much research here, but came across an article stating the power consumption wasn't much less in core 2 and even possibly performance wasn't too much more vs. core duo. Definitely both are better than any earlier Intel dual core. That is all speculation though. I wanted core 2, but couldn't find one that had what I wanted in my price range.
But, my system is vista ready, or so it says. I can also upgrade the chip in the future to any of the current lineup of core 2 if I wanted. Maybe later, when they are dirt cheap after quad core :)

Question: Why would one want 34 over 54 in expresscard? Yes, mine is 54, and if I am not mistaken also 34 compatible. Anyways, I wonder why that might be, other than smaller size.

At the very least you can know, germanboy, that a 2.16 ghz core duo will handle dvcpro hd very well with EDIUS. At least my particular system, with eSATA, etc, etc.

Jason
 
Guys,
no doubt you made my day...lets say half of it, cause now i am the dump guy who has to make a decission which one..thanks a lot, just great to get your support..and soooo fast too...!


p.s. looks lik the sony of barry got a different name in europe, or didnt hit the market..ill keep searching..!

p.s.2: i think no one would prefer a 34 over a 54, barry was just so nice to let me know that the sony has a 34, and it would be dump to buy a 54 adapter in this case..thnaks barry!
 
..think i found it barry...ill check it..but i personally never liked the whole vaio-setup with all the software that comes with it...time will tell!
 
Right -- nobody would prefer a 34 over a 54; a 54 can use 34 cards, so 54 is better. I'm just pointing out that mine is a 34 only, as is the MBP, but that some cards are 54 so be sure of that. 34 exists for smaller card size; 54 can take larger cards and can also take 34 cards.

As far as small & lightweight, one of the neat things about the Sony is that it includes two graphics cards in it. One is the Intel GMA 950, which is a middle-of-the-road performer but very easy on battery life. The other is an nVidia GE Force something-or-other, supposedly a lot more powerful but drains the battery. So when editing in desktop configuration you plug in your external monitor (such as the Dell 2405) and use a full 1920x1200 with the external VGA and high-speed graphics card. When on the road, use the built-in (too-small) screen and slide the switch so you use the battery-friendly GMA 950.

You can also use it in a dual-monitor configuration.
 
hvx_germanboy said:
..think i found it barry...ill check it..but i personally never liked the whole vaio-setup with all the software that comes with it...time will tell!
Click to expand...
Oh, there's plenty of "bloatware" on there. Step one with any Vaio is to go to the "add/delete programs" control panel!
 
Barry_Green said:
Oh, there's plenty of "bloatware" on there. Step one with any Vaio is to go to the "add/delete programs" control panel!
Click to expand...

Ohh yepp..otherwise its not really usable..when i saw some in the "standart-setup" i was thinking...Jesus, who the f.... would ever use all this bull....its incredible, cant imagine that even consumer-user feel comdortable with it..however...ill let you know which one is the one..thanks again!
:dankk2:
 
Ok. I thought you said that he would want the 34 expresscard slot... my bad.
That's cool about the dual graphics cards on the sony.
Lots of crap on the acer as well. It is media center edition, so there are lots of extra things beyond the norm.
Though, I must admit, I am enjoying watching local television stations on my laptop, through a digital antenna :) I have satellite at home and so no locals.
 
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