To MOS or not? (on micro budget)

nycineaste

nycineaste

Well-known member
recently saw an amateur short that was BUTCHERED by poor ADR. AT the same time, we know that Hollywood movies are in may cases almost completeley ADR'ed!!!

what the conventonal wisdom?

I love the idea of going MOS like the italian-os do, makes it easier to shoot, and I know a BOATLOAD about sound, since Ive been into producing electronic music for years (took a college course on it)., so my feeling at first was that it be a great way for me to get quality sound.

Then I went through a period where I thought it was totally unconvincing.

Is just the problem that its HARD TO DO on low budget? that the big boys have more toys and time to make it work?

MOS for micro budget movie making - good or bad idea? Pros? Cons? Is it the ideal, to be able to record everything in one go in a studio?
 
If you were to take this approach, you would want to shoot and edit in such a way to facilitate believable dubbing. Do not hold a close-up of an actor speaking 3 pages of dialogue. At best you'll be able to match one line at a time. You'll need reference audio at least for the actor the listen to and match performance. Look at the Russian film Nightwatch, it was made to be dubbed into English, even though it was produced in Russian, they edited so fast that you didn't see an actors lips move for more than about 2 words at a time, if that.

I'd say it's best to get good location audio whenever possible and save dubbing for those times when it isn't practical.
 
nycineaste said:
recently saw an amateur short that was BUTCHERED by poor ADR. AT the same time, we know that Hollywood movies are in may cases almost completeley ADR'ed!!!

...
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Not true. Because ADR is very time-consuming, hence very expensive, Hollywood usually does everything it can to get clean production sound on set so ADR is unnecessary. ADR is used when there's just no other way to get the shot, but generally every attempt is made to minimize it.
 
I'm interested in who the "we" is and exactly what these films are. Having worked on a number of large budget films My experience is that Hollywood avoids using ADR like the plague. Depending on the film they may shoot a bunch of ADR for actors who will be a problem to get later because it's cheaper than sitting on a completion bond later IF they need the lines but they avoid using ADR if at all possible.

BTW the Italian films I think you are talking about are not doing ADR. ADR is for replacing the spoken dialog with the same dialog, the italian MOS shoots are recording original dialog after the fact. It's not in lip sync.

And you may know a "boatload" about electronic music but that only marginally translates into film sound.

IF the plan is to make it look like you are using location dialog, then I think shooting MOS will put you in a world of hurt in post.

However if you going for that italian, Hong Kong Action film sound/feel then shooting MOS or just using a camera mount mic so you have some idea of what was said is a great idea. You can direct live like in the silent days, stunts can be coordinated better etc. it will go smoother and faster. But you will never get it to sound like production sound.
 
If you do decide to go MOS, make sure you do get adequate "room tone". And capture an impulse of sound (to be able to adequately 'verb up your ADR tracks) It's distracting to see a shot of a gym or some known reverby room, yet the dialogue is "dead".

But even if you are "MOS" and going to ADR, still run sound on your takes for the talent to sync up to in the booth. Even crappy sound will be better than nothing for the scratch track. Because if the talent happens to change a word here or there on set, they may not remember exactly how they delivered it when ADR'ing
 
shooting MOS will cost you more in the long run and feel very unnatural. Every single production I've been a part of tries to avoid ADR as much as possible. Unless you are shooting a piece that is going for that sort of sound and feel, avoid it at all costs.
 
Doc Bernard said:
even if you are "MOS" and going to ADR, still run sound on your takes for the talent to sync up to in the booth. Even crappy sound will be better than nothing for the scratch track. Because if the talent happens to change a word here or there on set, they may not remember exactly how they delivered it when ADR'ing
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Well yes to the obvious I guess. HOW CAN YOU ADR TO MOS? I've seen this happen. You need to first hire a lip reader to lay down a scratch track. Then you can ADR to that.
To the OP.. Jez...! at least turn on your camera mic, or get your terminology correct!
 
Obvious to you and me? Yes. To someone fairly new to film-making......painful lesson learned in the edit room.

That's what DVXUser is about. Helping other film-makers and being a resource. Please remember that.
 
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BRH said:
Well yes to the obvious I guess. HOW CAN YOU ADR TO MOS? I've seen this happen. You need to first hire a lip reader to lay down a scratch track. Then you can ADR to that.
To the OP.. Jez...! at least turn on your camera mic, or get your terminology correct!
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The problem with that is, the 'cheapest' lipreader I have available, I don't let look at my film clips until I'm done with the final edit... and of course paying cash money for such services to others... would be tantamount to insurrection.

But that aside, if one does ADR, having the exact transcripts of what is said on screen, via a 'reference/garbage' recording is absolutely required.

Actually transcriptions of on screen utterances is good for a number of things... especially in documentary work.
 
Lets get some terminology correct. You can not do ADR to MOS shots because you are NOT replacing dialog. The exception might be accidental MOS where you are replacing dialog you meant to record.

And since you are not recording dialog you don't need Room Tone. And really you don't need IR's of the space either, but why not.

Of course that assumes you have someone doing post that knows what to do with IR's. The OP might if convolution reverbs are in that "boatload" of sound he knows about but probably not for most of the folks reading this. But unless the space has a really nice sound and you know how to take an IR then it's kind of a waste. You can find a reverb setting that will sound like the space looks with out having to go to too much effort.

Now if he was actually doing ADR and needed to match the sound of the space then IR's make a LOT more sense.

OP, you also need to realize that shooting MOS will also require you to do a full post sound edit or it will sound like crap. You sound like your trying to cut down on your sound work and this is not a way to do that. IMHO you should be doing a full post anyway, but if you don't record on the set you really have no option since NOTHING will get recorded. So it's not just recording dialog but replacing ambiance, Foley, FX etc. Even those italian films did a lot of FX work to fill in all that empty space.
 
Noiz2 said:
And you may know a "boatload" about electronic music but that only marginally translates into film sound.
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hey, I know more about EQ, compression, and mixing down than most. Im talking specific frequencies where sounds sit and how each frequency range functions in an overall mix. Im quite confident my film sound learning curve will be comparitively short.

< runs fingers through hair>
< sword swipe sound shwink>

(actually that prolly has a fundamental around 1khz, I can boost 5k-8k for brightness, cut everything below 800-900 or so to keep it clean and give me headroom )

<does breakdance moves, ending in handstand>

sorry to confuse the issue for folks, obviously I meant MOS not ADR.

correction taken- hollywood films try to get good location sound. Question answered! Thanks.

my confusion started when seeing the making-of King Kong. I think I rememebr hearing that alot of dialog was done in post (call it what you will) cause of noisy wind machines and all that stuff.

thanks all
 
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nycineaste said:
my confusion started when seeing the making-of King Kong. I think I rememebr hearing that alot of dialog was done in post (call it what you will) cause of noisy wind machines and all that stuff.
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Yes, and those old monster movies (especially the Japanese ones) are the very archtype of laughably horrible ADR.

It is also reported that some older Hong Kong martial-arts movies were shot MOS because the dialog was rather incidental to the production and they dubbed it into several various languages for international release. There was no serious expectation of lip-sync. People went to see them for the action scenes.
 
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RE Richards post, yes HK Action films were mostly, if not all, shot MOS. Their market was and is almost exclusively in different languages. This is true for Italian films also. That however is not the case with english language films.

nycineaste:

OK you know something about sound and mixing. Sound post has almost nothing to do with any of that. Mixing is the final step and IS important but building the tracks is MUCH more important and that is not a skill you learn in doing music. Though having a music background can be very useful.

Music is about building up your sound. That is good but it's not much about breaking down your sound and that is critical in post editorial.

That "sword sound" in a well done sound post is not a sound but a bunch of sounds.

Anyway not trying to antagonize. But you should realize that sound post is a different world. What you know is useful but it's only a small part of what you need to know to do a good job in sound post. Overly cocky is not a plus. Knowing that you have a lot to learn is. I've done post for over 15 years and I have a lot to learn.

The film that you saw that "sucked" was not bad production, though it could have been part of the problem, but bad SOUND. They probably had the picture editor do most of it. I'm not insulting picture editors, I'm a mediocre at best picture editor and I know it. But picture editing and sound editing are totally different beasts and nobody does both on the same project and does them well.

 
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nycineaste said:
my confusion started when seeing the making-of King Kong. I think I rememebr hearing that alot of dialog was done in post (call it what you will) cause of noisy wind machines and all that stuff.

thanks all
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There are situations where ADR is the only realistic option. Standing in front of large fan, hanging in a harness suspented with guywires, may be a place for ADR (the Hong-Kong Martial Arts films included that sort of device as well for the performers...) . Wide shots were mic'ing is not possible, or wireless is not available may be another.

I was watching "Chinatown"(1974) last night looking at a visual editing sequence. On one scene, not the one I was interested in, it was an outdoor shot, and the voice of Faye Dunaway sounds to me 'distinctly' ADR. I don't know how much wireless lavaliers were used/available in quality form, but I think the shot was ADR'd.

The shot was wide, with Dunaway verbally sparing with Nicholson. The camera movement was continuous from Nicholson to Dunaway, so there was no option for a cutaway to hide the lack of being able to have a microphone in close.

The dialog 'feels' like it is not 'outdoors'...

But then heck it could all be production sound... and it was 'cleaned' too much...
 
nycineaste said:
hey, I know more about EQ, compression, and mixing down than most. Im talking specific frequencies where sounds sit and how each frequency range functions in an overall mix. Im quite confident my film sound learning curve will be comparitively short.

< runs fingers through hair>
< sword swipe sound shwink>

(actually that prolly has a fundamental around 1khz, I can boost 5k-8k for brightness, cut everything below 800-900 or so to keep it clean and give me headroom )

<does breakdance moves, ending in handstand>
Click to expand...

...You clearly know nothing about sound for picture.
 
RE: King Kong etc. It is true that Hollywood works hard to avoid ADR but it is also true that there are films, or scenes in films that have a LOT of ADR. Usually these will be planned for. If you are doing Star Wars in 1979 that wooden set is going to make your dialog boxy and there isn't a lot you can do in post to "fix" it. If you can get your hands on a non rereleased version of Star Wars you will see some really loose ADR sync. They were cutting on MAG and could only move in 1/4 frame increments so it just gets really loose at times. NOBODY noticed it when it came out because the show was compelling enough that we were not looking at the lips. I saw a screening of the original just before they did the rereleases with a bunch of film post people and we were kind of appalled at how loose it was, and very surprised that none of us had noticed in the other times we had seen it over the years.

Anyway some times ADR is a must but a lot fewer times than you might think. Most films don't have many if any shots that require ADR out of the box. ADR happes because for some reason the production is hosed AND the editor can't find an alternate take than can be made to work. Some of the "ADR" people think they hear is just a poor alt take choice.
 
Young bravado, gotta love it, In my youth I was a bit arrogant as well, but when I really started to truly learn was when I got old enough to realize I didn't know quite as much as I gave myself credit for.

Music and familiarity with music recording will help out at least you have an idea where in the frequency spectrum things live, a big advantage, but dont stop learning. if you have a chance mix some non-electronic instruments and you will see that in itself is a HUGE difference than mixing together samples and pre-recorded loops. that will help you hone your knowledge a bit more.

It is true that it is an entirely different ball of wax to create a natural sounding film, only way to learn is to do it and make mistakes and learn from them.

Good luck
 
I like to remember my P's when working.

Piss Poor Prior Planning Prevents Positive Production

In my book, unless you are only interested in an exercise in learning ADR, why even consider shooting MOS and doing ADR for the entire film?

Always plan on recording the best audio you can capture within your budget!

Think about the nightmare of editing an entire film without sound, then calling all the actors back in do do every line all over again, and then syncing every line back up with the video, and add all the audio post time. What an incredible wast of time and effort. Especially on a micro budget.
 
Not trying to pile on but +1 for recording good production sound and leaving ADR for emergencies such as on last indie pic I did. Two scenese come to mind. 1: LS of two guys yelling at each other in rain. Radio mics futzed out. 2: EXT CU & MS of three guys on hll. Clear sky & wind was blowing about 40 MPH (really!). Nothing we did could adequately cut the wind noise.

Both scenes forced us to ADR and while most in the general public wouldn't notice it, most of us here would easily tell the dialog was ADR. It was a real pain booking studio time and scheduling the actors for the ADR sessions!

If "realistic" sound is your goal then good production sound is a must.
 
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