I just finished up working on a 12 day shoot for an Indie film, I lost a pretty good amount of money due to not being at my paying job. That really doesn't bother me, I looked for thejob. Now, I have been asked to do a 3 day shoot with the director and producer in 2 weeks. What I would like to know, when one works for an indie director, is it frowned upon to ask for atleast compensation for the money you spend on commuting to set????
Time is Money, so how do I set a price??
- Thread starter Tokarsky
- Start date
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
haha
haha
Yeah... indie or not, you should get paid. I always pay. Nobody makes less than $150/day on my shoots, unless it's maybe a PA or something like that.
haha
Yeah... indie or not, you should get paid. I always pay. Nobody makes less than $150/day on my shoots, unless it's maybe a PA or something like that.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
actors?
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
Yes
Yes
I always pay actors, even in film school we paid our actors, not much, but something. On the last short every actor but the lead made $100, but that was because their roles required only 2 hours of work, they were very small, that was including makeup / wardrobe. Pretty much it was like showup, get you ready, you have a few lines, then you're done. So those were the exceptions to the $150 mark, but then again crew members paid that work 8-12 hours, not 2, haha. We shot SAG last shoot too, and I'm a SAG signatory now.
Yes
I always pay actors, even in film school we paid our actors, not much, but something. On the last short every actor but the lead made $100, but that was because their roles required only 2 hours of work, they were very small, that was including makeup / wardrobe. Pretty much it was like showup, get you ready, you have a few lines, then you're done. So those were the exceptions to the $150 mark, but then again crew members paid that work 8-12 hours, not 2, haha. We shot SAG last shoot too, and I'm a SAG signatory now.
Steve Laramie
Veteran
if you did a good job you should be able to ask for money.
thanks for the imput, this is very helpful. Also, any base price you guys charge to SHOOT something for a client? Whether it be a band or TV/web-based ad, or even student film??? I've been asked to do alot of live shows, and when they ask for a price, I've been telling people that it will be decided upon day of the shoot. Any suggestions?
Douglas Thigpen
Well-known member
Decided upon the day of the shoot?!?!
hahaha, i know, its crazy of me, but I've never done paid work, I dont wanna charge too much and have the potental client walk off, and i also don't wanna rip myself off. I'm thinking a hundred bucks is pretty fair???
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
Wow
Wow
You sell yourself cheap man.
I've never paid a DP less than $250 on any shoot, heck I've never paid behind-the-scenes less than $300 which was a total bargain for me if you think about it. I hire a guy with a tripod and an HVX200 and P2 cards, so a solid $7,000 in equipment, and he works a 12-hour day for me for $300? That's a bargain. It would be an insult to a professional to offer him less than that. Frankly I feel guilty enough just offering that. If I had a lot more money or my projects were for-profit, I'd love to offer more like $500, but unfortunately I'm just not in that position.
Usually I pay my DP $300 to $400. I consider that a very low rate for them; people I work with are worth more than that, and they know that as soon as I have the ability to pay more, they will get more. I appreciate what they do for me and the quality of work speaks for itself. They earn every penny.
I mean $100? Seriously? No way. I'll pay someone $100 who has zero experience and wants to be on the shoot to do odds and ends. That's what $100 is, it's nothing, it doesn't even affect the budget. If someone can't afford to pay you $300 for a day of your time they are not a professional and you shouldn't even bother working with them.
Wow
You sell yourself cheap man.
I've never paid a DP less than $250 on any shoot, heck I've never paid behind-the-scenes less than $300 which was a total bargain for me if you think about it. I hire a guy with a tripod and an HVX200 and P2 cards, so a solid $7,000 in equipment, and he works a 12-hour day for me for $300? That's a bargain. It would be an insult to a professional to offer him less than that. Frankly I feel guilty enough just offering that. If I had a lot more money or my projects were for-profit, I'd love to offer more like $500, but unfortunately I'm just not in that position.
Usually I pay my DP $300 to $400. I consider that a very low rate for them; people I work with are worth more than that, and they know that as soon as I have the ability to pay more, they will get more. I appreciate what they do for me and the quality of work speaks for itself. They earn every penny.
I mean $100? Seriously? No way. I'll pay someone $100 who has zero experience and wants to be on the shoot to do odds and ends. That's what $100 is, it's nothing, it doesn't even affect the budget. If someone can't afford to pay you $300 for a day of your time they are not a professional and you shouldn't even bother working with them.
Steve House
Veteran
Unless you're being paid, they're not a client and who gives a damn if they walk off. As the bumper sticker said back in the 70's "Gas, grass, or a** nobody rides for free." Now you may want to accept an unpaid gig where you'll have the chance to work and learn by assisting a recognized master or as a charity contribution to a cause you believe in but except in situations like that, you should always expect - nay, demand - to be compensated for your work at a fair market rate. The value of your work is based on what you do and the level of skill with which you do it and that's completely independent of whether the potential client is an indy or in the industry mainstream. Even for someone just starting out, it should never be valued less than the prevailing minimum wage plus the fair market rental value of any equipment you contribute to the production, even for no-budget shoots. Filmmaking may not be just another ordinary job, but it IS a job none the less. If you're doing anything beyond a self-motivated project with a buddy done just for the fun of it, you deserve to be paid.
Anything you get (or give) for free is worth exactly what you paid for it.
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Douglas Thigpen
Well-known member
Maybe I'm just old fashioned or have a sense of fairness (though not saying set rates for everything is not), but when I'm doing a paying project and I'm actually seeking out specific individuals to fill rolls, the principles of the shoot generally get paid relative to what is made, which at times means paying them almost as much as I'm making (of course, I'm always making ~15% on top of it all, including what I'm paying myself). Day rates for crew are determined by the location of the shoot.
But $100/day for a DP? I guess if it was a 'we're never going to make any money off this or sell off the property' student/fun film, sure, as long as you're cool with it. But if these individuals are shopping the film on the festival circuit, if they're only paying you $100 as DP, there needs to be more incentive for you in the long term success of it.
Back to your original question though, yes, shake him down for expenses, just make sure to let him know you're doing so before you roll your truck.
But $100/day for a DP? I guess if it was a 'we're never going to make any money off this or sell off the property' student/fun film, sure, as long as you're cool with it. But if these individuals are shopping the film on the festival circuit, if they're only paying you $100 as DP, there needs to be more incentive for you in the long term success of it.
Back to your original question though, yes, shake him down for expenses, just make sure to let him know you're doing so before you roll your truck.
LVP
New member
I think we all know the mindset of not wanting to price ourselves beyond our value when we are first starting out. You should be careful though, because sometimes that eagerness to just secure the gig can result in word going around that you work really cheap, and then you can end up getting a lot of calls from freebie seekers and people looking to take advantage of someone who is "looking for experience". The other thing that can happen is that once you have some chops and some good shoots under your belt, you may find that those people you worked for cheaply are still expecting a great bargain, and that doesn't help you in the cash department in the long run. So if you really want to avoid those problems in the future you should sit down and look at what you have to offer and the expenses you will be running, and come up with a standard minimum daily rate, say $250 if you are a well informed novice with half decent gear, and then bump it up as your experience level and quality of product goes up. If you have a standard rate to fall back on, start out by adding a little to it depending on each situation, and then if the client wants to walk away, fall back to the standard minimum and feel free to tell them that this is the absolute minimum you can charge so at least they know you are going as low as you can for them. If they walk away from $250 and you are not a 14 year old shooting on an old hi-8 cam, then you probably would be better off seeking other gigs anyway. As far as the deciding the day of the shoot thing, if you want to make this a business you should never even put the gear in the car without at least some kind of verbal agreement, and anything substantial with someone you don't know really well should be in writing.
RyanT
Veteran
It depends on if you're just some guy with some equipment and you're shooting stuff for other people, then you shouldn't sell yourself short. Your equipment is worth a decent amount of money, so is your ability to operate it.
However, if you're somebody who's just working as a PA or something of the sort, then you shouldn't push too much about getting paid if they don't offer it up front. Travel costs, however, are a bit of a different ballgame. It's pretty easy to get parking taken care of, just show them the reciept and you should be on your way, but things like gas and tolls always seem to be a bit more difficult. Just talk to them beforehand and settle something before the day of.
Honestly though, if you're a PA or someone is bringing you on just to learn, just stick it out. The effort you spend on all those freebies will come back to you. I know I can borrow one of my friends cameras and fun toys whenever I want because I've done so many favors for her. She's also gotten me a number of paid gigs as well, so it was definitely worth it to come out for free.
Just make sure if you're doing a free gig that you're learning, having fun, and making good contacts. I know I've done some crazy long days for chicken scratch, but I've come out of it with some pretty good friends. So just...think about things I guess.
However, if you're somebody who's just working as a PA or something of the sort, then you shouldn't push too much about getting paid if they don't offer it up front. Travel costs, however, are a bit of a different ballgame. It's pretty easy to get parking taken care of, just show them the reciept and you should be on your way, but things like gas and tolls always seem to be a bit more difficult. Just talk to them beforehand and settle something before the day of.
Honestly though, if you're a PA or someone is bringing you on just to learn, just stick it out. The effort you spend on all those freebies will come back to you. I know I can borrow one of my friends cameras and fun toys whenever I want because I've done so many favors for her. She's also gotten me a number of paid gigs as well, so it was definitely worth it to come out for free.
Just make sure if you're doing a free gig that you're learning, having fun, and making good contacts. I know I've done some crazy long days for chicken scratch, but I've come out of it with some pretty good friends. So just...think about things I guess.
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
Yes
Yes
Ryan has really good advice, I agree.
There is no shame in working for free or like $50 for a long day as a PA, provided you are at least treated like a human being, learn something, and have a little bit of fun too. I personally think that is a far superior way to learn filmmaking than in film school. I'd rather spend a year or two doing low-end work like that for free or for a few bucks rather than spend it in school in a classroom actually PAYING money to learn. That just is stupid if you ask me, how that ever became the norm rather than just something spoiled rich kids do, I have no clue. The best way to learn filmmaking is to be a filmmaker, and you're a filmmaker once you start making movies. You learn by doing and by being around other people who are doing it. Any knowledge that can possibly be gained in a classroom can certainly be gained by a lot of the fantastic film history books and criticism books that are out there, combined with a basic Netflix subscription. I was mainly self-taught in my knowledge of film, although I admit I took about 5-6 college classes on film history as well, which were great, but the tip of the iceberg truly (whereas we'd watch a single film on Soviet formalism, I would then go and rent or buy about 6-7 more classics of that time period from their great directors, so the class itself was just touching the surface of a lot of film movements).
I also strongly believe that while it may be acceptable to discount your time heavily on the right projects, it is never acceptable to discount your equipment. It breaks down, it gets wear and tear, and screw 'em if they're so unprofessional they can't understand equipment costs money. I've worked for like $15/hr and worked long, stressful days, but at the same time I was charging full rate for my gear, my editing equipment being used, everything along those lines, so at least it'd be like $15/hr plus hundreds per day in equipment charges too.
Yes
Ryan has really good advice, I agree.
There is no shame in working for free or like $50 for a long day as a PA, provided you are at least treated like a human being, learn something, and have a little bit of fun too. I personally think that is a far superior way to learn filmmaking than in film school. I'd rather spend a year or two doing low-end work like that for free or for a few bucks rather than spend it in school in a classroom actually PAYING money to learn. That just is stupid if you ask me, how that ever became the norm rather than just something spoiled rich kids do, I have no clue. The best way to learn filmmaking is to be a filmmaker, and you're a filmmaker once you start making movies. You learn by doing and by being around other people who are doing it. Any knowledge that can possibly be gained in a classroom can certainly be gained by a lot of the fantastic film history books and criticism books that are out there, combined with a basic Netflix subscription. I was mainly self-taught in my knowledge of film, although I admit I took about 5-6 college classes on film history as well, which were great, but the tip of the iceberg truly (whereas we'd watch a single film on Soviet formalism, I would then go and rent or buy about 6-7 more classics of that time period from their great directors, so the class itself was just touching the surface of a lot of film movements).
I also strongly believe that while it may be acceptable to discount your time heavily on the right projects, it is never acceptable to discount your equipment. It breaks down, it gets wear and tear, and screw 'em if they're so unprofessional they can't understand equipment costs money. I've worked for like $15/hr and worked long, stressful days, but at the same time I was charging full rate for my gear, my editing equipment being used, everything along those lines, so at least it'd be like $15/hr plus hundreds per day in equipment charges too.
Steve House
Veteran
Agreed, if you're a PA or go-fer working with a group of professionals in order to learn and gain experience, fine to work in exchange for free pizza from the craft services table. I do think it is totally appropriate to expect to have your out-of-pocket expenses covered even if your actual work goes unpaid. But Tokarsky was talking about being asked to shoot a show for a client ... fullfilling an above the line creative role where he is providing the gear and producing the program. That's a far cry from his being an unpaid apprentice. It's one thing if his "client" is his buddies in a garage band and he's doing them a favour, but if he's been approached by someone seeking to book his services as a videographer, he should respond in a business-like manner and charge them an appropriate professional fee for the quality of work he going to deliver.
steev'sHVX
Well-known member
ok so in my case im just a guy with an hvx and fcp. tryna learn and get as much experience i can. people have seen my videos and really like them. i mean there nothing high end prod. i cant even afford a tripod yet. but i still have people wanting me to make them videos. how should i charge them. im not a production co.(yet) but still tryna get my hvx payed for. so what do i charge? i was thinkn a reasonable rate would be a dollar a second of the final duration of the product. what do you think i should do?
steev'sHVX
Well-known member
ok so what does a low end prod. co. charge?