Time code generator between Sound Device and HVX200?

C

c3kings

Well-known member
Hi, all,

I have been using Sound Device 702T to record my sound and eventually sync up with the video footage shot by my HVX200. Everyone knows how painful to sync up material with different time code. Someone told me that I actually can buy a device like time code generator. First, jam the time code with Sound Device and then connect it to HVX200 through one of the XLR connectors to record the time code into one of the audio tracks. During the editing, using this generated time code to sync up the video footage. (I'm not certain the exact workflow. Please do correct me if any mistakes)

Anyone can suggest me any time code generator for this purpose, please?

Thanks.

King
 
Ambient Lockit boxes and Denecke SB-3's

are common to keep frame accurate sync
when you're not connected to a camera.
The difference with those is you're usually feeding the timecode IN on the camera.

Just as you said you can also send timecode to a channel on the camera.

It's a good box to have.
If you're not needing to go wireless to the camera you can just use your built in generator
to send the audible timecode signal to camera, or use a wireless/ or comtek.
 
Last edited:
Rippie said:
Ambient Lockit boxes and Denecke SB-3's

are common to keep frame accurate sync
when you're not connected to a camera.
The difference with those is you're usually feeding the timecode IN on the camera.

Just as you said you can also send timecode to a channel on the camera.

It's a good box to have.
If you're not needing to go wireless to the camera you can just use your built in generator
to send the audible timecode signal to camera, or use a wireless/ or comtek.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for your reply, Rippie.

But I am using HVX200, which has no device to jam timecode. Also, I am curious about wireless device. Does it mean that my camera doesn't need to attach the sync generator with wireless device?

I'm sorry if my questions are too "obvious," as I have no experience how to use sync generator.

Thanks a lot.
King
 
c3kings said:
Thanks a lot for your reply, Rippie.

But I am using HVX200, which has no device to jam timecode. Also, I am curious about wireless device. Does it mean that my camera doesn't need to attach the sync generator with wireless device?

I'm sorry if my questions are too "obvious," as I have no experience how to use sync generator.

Thanks a lot.
King
Click to expand...

Never mentioned you could jam a 200's timecode
but you can send to the audio channel just as you mentioned.


The Denecke or Ambient box is going to generate the same audible timecode
as your 702T.
So you can do a number of different solutions.

Send a line out of your timecode out on your recorder into a channel
on the camera via a cable. Or toss a wireless on there if you need to be wireless.

Or throw a lockit or SB3 as you mentioned. (more of a set it and forget it way to go)

Having no idea what your job is, you'll have to figure out whats best
for your situation.
 
c3kings said:
Thanks a lot for your reply, Rippie.

But I am using HVX200, which has no device to jam timecode. Also, I am curious about wireless device. Does it mean that my camera doesn't need to attach the sync generator with wireless device?

I'm sorry if my questions are too "obvious," as I have no experience how to use sync generator.

Thanks a lot.
King
Click to expand...

You also have to consider you editing workflow. You didn't mention what software you're using for your post-production editing and many programs, indeed most, are not able to recognize linear timecode recorded on an audio track. Also, timecode on audio doesn't do anything to keep audio and video in sync - all it does is establish a single lineup point, really just a convenient substitute for a clapper slate's function. To insure audio and video to drift apart over long takes, the outboard generator you ask about has to feed into a camera's genlock sync input, something the HVX200 doesn't have as you know.

When using timecode with a camera that has neither genlock not external timecode inputs, you might be better off using a film-style workflow where the audio recorder's timecode generator is jammed to a smart slate that displays code to the camera when the shot is slated.
 
Thanks a lot, Rippie and Steve. Both of you gave me very valuable comments.

Rippie, what is "audible timecode?" They read the numbers out. I though if I use a cable to connect the box's timecode out to HVX200 audio channel. I will get the written number on my editing software.

Steve, I use FCP 7. I "imagine" the workflow will be the following: (please bear with me if it sounds so idiotic to you, as I really have no experience.)

1./ I jam the timecode with my Sound Device 702T and the box (either Ambient or Denecke), so that the box will have the same timecode as my SD has.

2./ I attach the box on my HVX200 and connect the "timecode out" from the box to one of the HVX200 XLR audio channels. I keep the box on, so anytime when I press the record button of HVX200, it will also record the timecode generated by the box on that specific audio channel.

3./ After I Log and Transfer the video files from HVX200 and import the sound files from SD into FCP7, I start to merge the clips. Instead of the original TC, I tell FCP to use the TC generated by the box on one of the audio tracks to sync with the TC of the audio files from SD.

Is it that "simple?" Please correct.

Steve, do you think this method is realiable? Ambient said that their box will shift no more than one frame each day, so if I keep jamming the TC with SD every few hours, I should be safe. Am I right? Your suggestion using smart slate is wonderful, but it is somehow more processes to sync up the footage in FCP than just a click of "merge." What do you say?

Thanks a lot!
King
 
c3kings said:
Thanks a lot, Rippie and Steve. Both of you gave me very valuable comments.

Rippie, what is "audible timecode?" They read the numbers out. I though if I use a cable to connect the box's timecode out to HVX200 audio channel. I will get the written number on my editing software.

Steve, I use FCP 7. I "imagine" the workflow will be the following: (please bear with me if it sounds so idiotic to you, as I really have no experience.)

1./ I jam the timecode with my Sound Device 702T and the box (either Ambient or Denecke), so that the box will have the same timecode as my SD has.

2./ I attach the box on my HVX200 and connect the "timecode out" from the box to one of the HVX200 XLR audio channels. I keep the box on, so anytime when I press the record button of HVX200, it will also record the timecode generated by the box on that specific audio channel.

3./ After I Log and Transfer the video files from HVX200 and import the sound files from SD into FCP7, I start to merge the clips. Instead of the original TC, I tell FCP to use the TC generated by the box on one of the audio tracks to sync with the TC of the audio files from SD.

Is it that "simple?" Please correct.

Steve, do you think this method is realiable? Ambient said that their box will shift no more than one frame each day, so if I keep jamming the TC with SD every few hours, I should be safe. Am I right? Your suggestion using smart slate is wonderful, but it is somehow more processes to sync up the footage in FCP than just a click of "merge." What do you say?

Thanks a lot!
King
Click to expand...

The timecode generator in the SD 702T is made by Ambient as well so the two should keep very good time together. But remember, the only timecode in the audio recorded in the SD recorder is a timestamp of the first sample .. all it does is line up the audio to the video but it does NOT control its playback speed.

As for the workflow in FCP, I'm not a Mac guy so I can't comment one way or the other on FCP's capabilities. The normal handling of a BWF file is when you drop it into the editor, the timestamp of the first sample aligns with the matching marker in the NLE timeline. Whether FCP handles it that way or whether FCP will align the video clip so it's LTC in the audio channel lines up to the editing timeline I'm afraid I have no knowledge.
 
Steve House said:
The timecode generator in the SD 702T is made by Ambient as well so the two should keep very good time together. But remember, the only timecode in the audio recorded in the SD recorder is a timestamp of the first sample .. all it does is line up the audio to the video but it does NOT control its playback speed.

As for the workflow in FCP, I'm not a Mac guy so I can't comment one way or the other on FCP's capabilities. The normal handling of a BWF file is when you drop it into the editor, the timestamp of the first sample aligns with the matching marker in the NLE timeline. Whether FCP handles it that way or whether FCP will align the video clip so it's LTC in the audio channel lines up to the editing timeline I'm afraid I have no knowledge.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much, Steve. In this case, I probably will get an Ambient.
Thanks a lot!!
King
 
Why, Rippie? Yes, the price of Denecke is cheaper, too. The reason why I am thinking to choose Ambient is because SD 702T is using Ambient, too.

By the way, for Ambient, it just comes with 2XBNC cables. As I need to feed the TC to a XLR audio channel, what kind of cable do I need to buy, BNC to XLR female or Lemo-5 to XLR female? I would like to order at the time from B&H online shop.

Thanks a lot.
King
 
c3kings said:
Thank you very much, Steve. In this case, I probably will get an Ambient.
Thanks a lot!!
King
Click to expand...

Didn't mean to disparage Denke. Their boxes are excellent products also. More was commenting on the stability of the SD recorder's timecode module - it's essentially an Ambient Lockit box built-in to the recorder.
 
Steve House said:
Didn't mean to disparage Denke. Their boxes are excellent products also. More was commenting on the stability of the SD recorder's timecode module - it's essentially an Ambient Lockit box built-in to the recorder.
Click to expand...

Hi, Steve, I got an email from Ambient at Germany, and they suggested me to buy ALL601 and even didn't mention about ACL203. Can ACL203 do the job? In fact, what is the main difference between ALL601 and ACL203?

Thanks a lot.
King
 
c3kings said:
Hi, Steve, I got an email from Ambient at Germany, and they suggested me to buy ALL601 and even didn't mention about ACL203. Can ACL203 do the job? In fact, what is the main difference between ALL601 and ACL203?

Thanks a lot.
King
Click to expand...

The 601 can reade the timecode output via the LANC terminal on some camcorders and log it alongside the timecode generated by its own internal TC generator (which you would either jam from or to the SD recorder's internal generator).
 
Steve House said:
The 601 can reade the timecode output via the LANC terminal on some camcorders and log it alongside the timecode generated by its own internal TC generator (which you would either jam from or to the SD recorder's internal generator).
Click to expand...

Hi, Steve, let me share with you an answer directly from Ambient:

this is correct. For the HVX200, the ALL601 can only be used as a TC generator, just like the ACL203.
The advantage of the ALL601 would be weight and price, it costs less because it does not have the video sync signal generator which the ACL has, which is not used for the HVX200 either.

In this case, I may for ACL anyway.
Thanks.
King
 
c3kings said:
Hi, Steve, let me share with you an answer directly from Ambient:

this is correct. For the HVX200, the ALL601 can only be used as a TC generator, just like the ACL203.
The advantage of the ALL601 would be weight and price, it costs less because it does not have the video sync signal generator which the ACL has, which is not used for the HVX200 either.

In this case, I may for ACL anyway.
Thanks.
King
Click to expand...

Frankly I think it's going to be more trouble than it's worth. Consider this simpler alternative ... shoot "filmstyle" using a smart slate. Jam free-run timecode from the SD702 into the slate so their codes match. Slate each take - you should be doing this anyway. In post, slip the video clip or offset the timeline to align the photographed frame numbers on the slate to the NLE's timeline. Drop in the BWF file. Alignment done. Remember in a file-based workflow all timecode provides is a single positional reference, it does NOT provide a speed reference so no matter how you go about it, all you end up with is a single alignment point functionally no different from aligning via an old-fashioned audible slate clap. Feeding LTC to a camera audio track doesn't really buy you anything.
 
Steve House said:
Frankly I think it's going to be more trouble than it's worth. Consider this simpler alternative ... shoot "filmstyle" using a smart slate. Jam free-run timecode from the SD702 into the slate so their codes match. Slate each take - you should be doing this anyway. In post, slip the video clip or offset the timeline to align the photographed frame numbers on the slate to the NLE's timeline. Drop in the BWF file. Alignment done. Remember in a file-based workflow all timecode provides is a single positional reference, it does NOT provide a speed reference so no matter how you go about it, all you end up with is a single alignment point functionally no different from aligning via an old-fashioned audible slate clap. Feeding LTC to a camera audio track doesn't really buy you anything.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot, Steve, but I mostly do documentary films. Slating seems difficult sometimes.
Thanks.
King
 
Not to rain on your parade but I don't think FCP will read TC from an audio track. I would definitely spend some time making sure that your work flow will work before plunking down a lot of money on smart slates. It's not that hard to sync takes and if you reward yourself with a beer for every sunk up take you would (along with getting plastered) save a lot of money. Actually the beer idea is not a good one...

Slating isn't that hard. I made a little piece of plywood with a cloths pin screwed to the top with a bit of white paint and a black stripe. Fit's in a pocket works with one hand and it's not too loud. All you really need is an audible and visual click. Nice to have more but we were doing it in the field run and gun in Africa for interviews in villages. Seems that your proposed workflow is going to be a bigger headache in the field than slating would be.
 
It is the reply from Ambient:

for Final cut you would first transfer the clips to the computer and make them QT files, then FCP-Aux-TC-Reader can be used to transfer the audio TC into the AUX-TC, see http://www.videotoolshed.com/?page=products&pID=26

In fact, why I want to have a sync box because we are spending a lot of labour and time just for syncing up the footage.

Anyway, I would really want to hear anyone actually using this sync box to share the real pro and con about this method.

Thanks.
King
 
Hey it's your $. If your "spending a lot of labour and time" syncing footage you either have the wrong person doing it or your getting a disorganized mess back from the field, or you have a mistaken idea of how long things take.

As far as I can tell from the site this software lets you see a TC readout. That will get you close (if your organized in the field) but you still are only with in a frame or so. Which means it's still going to take someone some time to phase it in.

But who knows it might work like a charm. Personally I would rent the stuff you need and give it a test before dropping a couple of grand on it, but thats me.

If I was your producer I would be worried that whatever work flow breakdown is causing you to spend a lot of time syncing is still going to be a problem with the new work flow.

But do keep us updated if you go this route, because if it does work well it could be useful.
 
c3kings said:
Hi, all,

I have been using Sound Device 702T to record my sound and eventually sync up with the video footage shot by my HVX200. Everyone knows how painful to sync up material with different time code. Someone told me that I actually can buy a device like time code generator. First, jam the time code with Sound Device and then connect it to HVX200 through one of the XLR connectors to record the time code into one of the audio tracks. During the editing, using this generated time code to sync up the video footage. (I'm not certain the exact workflow. Please do correct me if any mistakes)

Anyone can suggest me any time code generator for this purpose, please?

Thanks.

King
Click to expand...


Why not try something completely different.
The right question to ask would be is there a simple automatic way to synch 702T sound with my HVX200 picture in post, be it TC generator or something else.
A new promising, purely SW solution is called PluralEyes from http://www.singularsoftware.com/index.html .Great news for you (and bad for PC based workflows) is that it works just in FCP. What's it all about. It means NO timecode worries, NO TC generators, NO jam synching and NO slating (if you dont use TC). Most important NO manual alignment in post is needed. It looks incredible.
How does it work in your case - aligning 702T audio with HVX200 picture.
It works by comparing the audio track (it's waveform) from 702T with the audio from HVX200. You probably don't have to worry about turning the HVX200 or 702T on and off - all that is going to matter is alignment of waveforms. The principle idea looks very simple. Take two waveforms and line them up. When I start to think how complex and advanced algorithms were made for different video codecs I wonder how come such audio app wasn't available long before.
Might be that there wasn't enough processing power.
Anyway, the PluralEyes goes even further. You can align multiple audio tracks from more cameras or more audio recorders. The possibilities look amazing.

I haven't used PluralEyes since I'm based on PC workflow with PremierePro, so I don't know the exact behavior of the app. It is for sure taking care of alignment between the audio/video tracks but I think it also takes care of the drift in the synch - but I'm clueless if something happens to the voice pitch during this.

DL the trial version and try it out for free and test out the workflow. Anyway, it's cheaper then renting some TC generator for workflow testing.
 
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