Thoughts on sound for a 4 camera setup?

[thoomp]

Hey guys…here’s the scoop.

For our in-house production work, I’ll admit that we’ve (possibly foolishly) amassed a bit of inexpensive and used/refurbished sound technology over the past two years, to try and build an ideal 4 camera setup for indoor cooking demonstrations and interviews.

Surely what we have is overkill at this point as far as sound is concerned. Although it would be nice, we don’t have a dedicated sound guy. What originally started as a single-cam DSLR project has grown to a 4-cam setup and things aren’t so simple anymore.

Think of what our equipment list below as a bunch of Lego blocks. Soundwise, how would you build the ideal setup?

What do we really need, given what we have?
What should we sell off?
Do we already have what we need to get a really low noise floor and accurate syncing?

Basically, the plan has been to generally shoot wide with a Canon XF100 as the “A” camera, as supported by 3 Canon HDSLRs to capture different angles (mid shots and closeups; food closeups). Apparently the XF100 has awesome sound and quiet pre-amps, as opposed to the Canon HDSLRs.

We figure that we’d drop it all into PluralEyes to sync it in FCPX in the end, and have FCPX crunch it all down as multi-cam.

Again, were new to this. The XF100 is a new addition, as we figure that it will greatly simplify things with audio – particularly for outdoor run-and-gun stuff – and we’d like to get this right the first time now that we'll be using the HDSLR as “B” cams.

Thanks so much in advance!


Equipment List:

****************

* Tascam DR-100 (Mark I, not the newer Mark II with quieter pre-amps…which raises the question if we should upgrade to the Mark II for a lower noise floor)
* Tascam DR-05

* Canon XF100 (two XLR inputs)
* 3 Canon DSLRs (Maybe we can get away with the internal mics just for syncing purposes?)

* Audio Technica AT875R short shotgun mic (for the Canon XF100)
* Rode VideoMic Pro
* juicedLink CX231 Audio Mixer and Preamplifier for Camcorders with Phantom Power


* 2 Sennheiser Evolution G3 100 Series Wireless Lav Microphone sets
* 4 Sennheiser 280HD Pro headphones (one for each camera)

****************

 

[ggrantly]

Four cam ops and no sound person, it is probably time to spend some money on sound.

How many people are on cam? What is your budget? Moving forward, are you going to have a dedicated sound person or people? At present, your kit is in no way overkill.

The G3s are good for this type of production. The 875 shouldn't be on cam, or any other mic for that matter. When it is used, it should be on a boom, but indoors, it is not the best choice.

To start this process, we need more info To start, you could probably use a dedicated sound person with a mixer, but that is only a start depending on your situation.

 

[paulears]

Could you explain the in-house space you're using? If you're shooting interviews your audio needs are different to what you'd need if you have standing presenters - so if the shooting is always in the same space as a regular thing, then I'd probably buy very different kit to location kit. I'd have, for example, no need for shotguns, basket windshields and hairy covers, but I'd perhaps want phantom powered clip-on lav types. Or maybe if they sit at desks, I'd consider something else? Could you give us an example of how your 4 camera shoot will be set up physically?

The Mk1 version you mentioned. If fed from a mixer with a decent level input, the preamp noise isn't an issue - it's only when cranked up it becomes a problem. Some devices shouldn't be useful - but are. I've still got two of the HHB portadisc recorders - I no longer should use minidisc, but I have these, plus two rack mount Sony's, and a studio Denon - and they're still very useful and quite capable.

 

[thoomp]

Thanks for fast responses, guys!

Budget: For better or for worse, we have already spent most of our money already on our equipment. If our project takes off and we get bigger (we're just getting started), we'll certainly have a dedicated sound guy. Given that we're going to be on the road much of the time, you can imagine that the more staff - the more costly it'll be - and our budget is a bit tapped out at the moment. What’s left will be largely reserved for travel expenses and so forth. Filming will be for a sizzle reel, a TV pilot, and webisodes.

Most of the filming will be in varying restaurants and restaurant kitchens, which are typically small. Outdoor filming would likely just be super-fast run-n-gun with the XF100 alone and the AT875R cam - just filming the host.

Although it's far less than ideal, I was hoping that we could just have 3-4 people man the cams and (one HDSLR locked-down if we can't afford 4 people), with everyone monitoring their own audio -- to spare us from having to hire a dedicated sound guy for the moment. (Please assume that losing a cam or two, and hiring a dedicated sound guy is not an option in this scenario.)


Proposed starter audio workflow:

* Dialogue captured by the two lavs (as monitored by one person), which would go directly into the Tascam DR-100. We could put the juicedLink CX231 inline in between the lavs and the Tascam to lower the noise floor if needed, or sell both and just buy a Tascam DR-100 Mark II to simplify the potential noise floor issue. (Or is it an issue at all?)
* General kitchen sound (and audio master syncing track) captured by the AT875R on the XF100.
* Kitchen sound close-ups could be done by the Rode VideoMic Pro, into the 5D Mark II (using Magic Lantern)
* All DSLRs capture a rough (noisy) soundtrack using the crappy internal mics solely for syncing purposes.
* Run the Tascam DR-05 for a back-up audio recording (unnecessary?)

Proposed Cam Setup:

Assume we’ll cram as much as we can into a particular space…and we’ll cut back on cams as needed. For argument’s sake, let’s pretend that space is no issue and we're shooting two people working in the kitchen.

* XF100 in the middle, getting the wide shots (shoulder mount)
* 2 HDSLRs (shoulder mount) flank the XF100 for cross-shooting for mid shots and close-ups; (observing 180 degree rule here)
* 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] HDSLR shooting high on a tripod and 4’ jib from a distance in back with a zoom, to get food close-ups

Again, I’m a bit embarrassed to post all this as a newbie - although the proposed project is huge - but I guess that one has to start somewhere. I’ll admit that I got swept up in the whole HDSLR revolution two years ago, and the XF100 now simplifies things. Then again, the HDSLRs really seem to offer unprecedented quality multi-cam filming that were previously unaffordable to the masses.

Thanks again for taking the time out to help out!

 

[Richard Crowley]

For our in-house production work,

What does "in-house" mean exactly? Do you have a proper studio space? Or are you using a space with low ceiling and close, reflective walls? Is this a camera production only, or do you have a studio audience to provide reinforcement for?

Do we already have what we need to get a really low noise floor...?

Dunno. Depends on a lot of other things you haven't revealed. Always start with what you already have and evaluate whether it is sufficient for the project or whether it needs improvement. It might be heresy in these parts, but you don't need 192K, 32-bit SACD audio quality for a webcast. You tell us. Do you have a sufficiently low noise floor with what you are using now? Exactly what parts of your equipment list ARE you using now?

Do we already have what we need to get...accurate syncing?

IMHO, you do.

We figure that we’d drop it all into PluralEyes to sync it in FCPX in the end...
3 Canon DSLRs (Maybe we can get away with the internal mics just for syncing purposes?)

We don't know how far away your DSLRs are, so we can't predict whether their built-in mics will pick up sufficient sound for PluralEyes to operate reliably. Only YOU can make that experiment under your conditions and in your space. If there is insufficient acoustic/microphone audio, you can hard-wire audio feed to the DSLRs from the mixer.

Apparently the XF100 has awesome sound and quiet pre-amps, as opposed to the Canon HDSLRs.

Almost ANY camcorder with a mic input has better sound performance than ANY DSLR. I would guess that the sound performance of your XF100 is sufficient for your needs.

Equipment List:
* Tascam DR-100; Tascam DR-05

Not clear why you need separate audio recording if your main camera is sufficient.

* Canon XF100 (two XLR inputs)

My guess is that the XF100 is probably sufficient for recording the audio track. However it is not clear whether only two tracks is sufficient, especially with no sound person if you need more than 2 mics.

* Audio Technica AT875R short shotgun mic (for the Canon XF100)
* Rode VideoMic Pro

Not clear what good these will be in a space with close reflections.

* juicedLink CX231 Audio Mixer and Preamplifier for Camcorders with Phantom Power

IMHO, this is of only marginal benefit since it has only two inputs (which your XF100 provides by itself.)

* 2 Sennheiser Evolution G3 100 Series Wireless Lav Microphone sets

IMHO, this is your main source of audio for the cooking demonstrations, AND for the interviews.
We don't know how many speaking parts there are for the cooking demonstrations.
We also don't know how many people are involved in the interviews.
So we don't know whether only two wireless mics are sufficient for your needs?

* 4 Sennheiser 280HD Pro headphones (one for each camera)

Not clear to me why you need four headphones when you have NO audio person?
Not clear to me why you need headphones for the DSLRs since there is nothing to do (no mics to position, no gains to set, etc.)

My primary concern would be having enough clip-on lav (or earset) mics to cover all eventualities (and for spares).
And having a mixer with enough inputs for the maximum number of "speaking parts".
Note that this may include audience reaction if you have an audience.
And "plant" sound-effect mics (the knife on the board, the sizzling frying pan, etc.)

I agree that you appear to have some equipment that doesn't seem particularly useful for your production.

Also possibly heretical: I would make every effort to find a reasonably intelligent and detail-oriented person to conscript into service as an audio person. An audio person is secondary only to the camera operator on the "A camera". Any other crew position is less important than audio.

 

[Richard Crowley]

You answered several of my questions while I was writing them.

But I think you are making a serious mistake to think that you need camera operators on each DSLR, but no audio person (or at the very least a crew person whose PRIMARY responsibility is audio, and who can move a DSLR when they have spare time.)

 

[ggrantly]

"Budget: For better or for worse, we have already spent most of our money already on our equipment. If our project takes off and we get bigger (we're just getting started), we'll certainly have a dedicated sound guy. Given that we're going to be on the road much of the time, you can imagine that the more staff - the more costly it'll be - and our budget is a bit tapped out at the moment. What’s left will be largely reserved for travel expenses and so forth. Filming will be for a sizzle reel, a TV pilot, and webisodes."

If you have a bunch of pretty pictures, and crap audio, it will kill all your hard work and make you look like a buffoon. Me thinks you need some balance on this one. Depending on your scenario, you might get away with the gear you've got, but 3-4 camera operators and no one doing audio is just wrong IMHO. You may not want to hear that, but you did ask for advice.

Like I said before, you need someone to worry over audio and probably a mixer. Set one of the dslrs on a tripod and let it run. I'm not very sure that for this type of work four cams is really needed anyway. Get one of your existing crew to do a crash course in audio. Your expenses will stay the same. Buy a SD302 for $1200 or one of the cheaper models for $600. Doing these two things will really help you. With more info, you might get some recommendations on better mics.

Grant

 

[thoomp]

Grant – That sounds like a possibility there, and that’s certainly why I’m asking you guys advice. Much appreciated. We haven’t started shooting yet, and better to start out correctly than getting used to a crappy workflow.

What equipment would you get rid of, and what would you keep? Let’s assume we lock down one of the HDSLRs for wide shots only and we put that person on focusing on audio alone.

Also, what specific workflow would you do audio-wise? Again, some of the items (Rode VM Pro, DR-100 Mark I, JuicedLink) were purchased well before we purchased the XF100. Selling off some stuff off would surely free up our budget for a higher-end sound recorder.

 

[thoomp]

Hi Richard,

So many thanks for taking the time to parse through all that. I’ve been afraid to post this for a while now, as I know that it’s against the grain – particularly as far as audio is concerned – and I’m admittedly new to the game. I can imagine that I probably look foolish for throwing cash in the wrong places; I figured at least I could resell the items that I don’t need for close to what I paid for them. I know well that crap audio will sink any production.

(Then again, the really foolish thing to do is to be afraid to ask for help, right?)

Thoughts:

In-house production work means we’re trying to a single, ongoing project by ourselves, instead of outsourcing to a external production company that takes on many projects. Again, we’re not taking on other projects; we’re just focusing on filming a single project and we may outsource for post as post is an art within itself.

No proper studio space. We’re filming everything on location; filming will be mostly in commercial kitchens and restaurants. We have no idea what the reflectivity will be like, going from kitchen to kitchen.

Again, we’re just getting started…We’ll be doing tests later this summer...but you can imagine that it’s hard to get access to working commercial kitchens unless we’re actually filming for the show. No audiences there.

Noise floor – It’s hard to tell what’s acceptable or not. It’s admittedly been more of “buy what we need first” and see what works or doesn’t in practice.

Glad to hear that we’ve got what we need for accurate syncing; I figured that an extra piece of equipment or two would be buying insurance if one track doesn’t get recorded cleanly.

>>>>>We don't know how far away your DSLRs are, so we can't predict whether their built-in mics will pick up sufficient sound for PluralEyes to operate reliably. Only YOU can make that experiment under your conditions and in your space. If there is insufficient acoustic/microphone audio, you can hard-wire audio feed to the DSLRs from the mixer.

That’s why I figured give everyone who’s behind a camera a pair of headphones. If they can clearly hear the dialogue, I’m guessing that their audio would cleanly sync up to the master dialogue track captured by the 2 lavs pumped into the Tascam DR-100.

Track 1: Lav 1 (DR-100)
Track 2: Lav 2 (DR-100)
Track 3: Shotgun for dialogue on XF100 (if that works)
Track 4: XF100’s onboard mic for ambient kitchen sounds
OR
Track 4: Rode VM Pro on HDSLR for ambient kitchen sounds

As I just mentioned to Grant, duly noted about seeing if I could get someone to focus only on the audio, and man a HDSLR as a second option. I’m going to give this SERIOUS consideration and totally thanks for the heads-up.

Almost always only two speaking parts per cooking demos/interviews in a kitchen.

>>>And "plant" sound-effect mics (the knife on the board, the sizzling frying pan, etc.)

I was thinking of just planting the DR-05 near the kitchen surface (cutting board/stove area).

*****************************

Again – Imagine you’re in charge now. You now have a dedicated sound guy who can man a locked down HDSLR in a wide shot. You have access to all the above. What do you use on each channel? What exactly would your workflow be? What would you get rid of?

So many thanks, Richard!

 

[ggrantly]

With two speaking parts in a noisy environment, lavs will be your friend.

With regards to your gear, these are just opinions, others will think differently. I'm not sure if the Juiced Link offers much, I'd sell it. The DR100 doesn't have much market value, and is handy, so I'd keep it since it will record when your XF100 isn't around. Rode VMP could probably go in favor of a small condenser like a AT4053B, because the VMP won't work well on a boom, though this not a straight-up swap. Until you can afford better, keep the 875. it is a very decent cheap shotgun.

Best 3 channel mixer = Sound Devices 302. Mix the two dialogue lavs into one track. Use the third input-track for whatever else; backup, sizzle, chop-chop, etc. And it does sound like you need at least a 3 channel mixer. For less money, you could consider a multitrack recorder like a DR-680, which would give you more independent tracks, but isn't as good for mixing, but would be better than where you are now.

Grant

 

[Richard Crowley]

It seems very safe to assume that 99% of the on-location commercial kitchen spaces will range between tight and nearly impossible. They will likely ALL be way too reflective to make the shotgun mics useful for much of anything (even ambient sound effects). As Grant says "lavs will be your friend". When you acquire another microphone, consider an "earset" mic (like Rode, et.al.) which will get the mic even that much closer to the talent's mouth. http://www.rodemic.com/mics/hs1-b The Rode mics are nice because they feature field-replaceable cables, and interchangeable output connectors which makes them usable for both wired and wireless applications.

And from all the commercial kitchens I've seen/heard, the ambient noise in the space will completely swamp out the noise floor of the electronics (including camera) and even the microphones. Unless you are shooting outside business hours, etc. I would be MUCH more concerned about increasing signal-to-noise ratio by getting the microphones close to the mouth of the talent than I would be about the noise floor of the electronics. You aren't recording a string quartet in a parlor here.

Note that it is virtually certain that ALL the shows like this you see on broadcast TV have a dedicated sound person, either mixing live, or recording all the mics to separate tracks of a recorder. If you don't even have any crew person to look after sound, shotgun mics are something you don't have the crew to use properly.

 

[Steve House]

...
Budget: For better or for worse, we have already spent most of our money already on our equipment. If our project takes off and we get bigger (we're just getting started), we'll certainly have a dedicated sound guy. Given that we're going to be on the road much of the time, you can imagine that the more staff - the more costly it'll be - and our budget is a bit tapped out at the moment. What’s left will be largely reserved for travel expenses and so forth. Filming will be for a sizzle reel, a TV pilot, and webisodes.

...

Brutal truth ... sound is as important, and often more important, than picture. You may have spent most of your money on equipment but you are still only half-way there. If your sizzle reel doesn't have smoking good sound, if your pilot doesn't have fully broadcast ready sound, you'll never see that bigger budget you're hoping for. You're in competition with pilots made by the major production studios and your quality has to be indistinguishable from theirs if you're to have a prayer of selling. "If you pick up the show our production episodes will sound better" won't fly with program buyers.

 

[recordingwhiz]

4 Cam ops + NO sound guy = almost guaranteed failure.

If anything you need to sell one of the cameras and loose one of your camera ops and hire a seasoned sound guy.

100X what Steve said, plus Ill mention something we have to bring up almost daily here in the audio forum to budding film makers that blew their wad on camera gear and didnt think about audio.
All the shows you see on TV have sound crews NO exception, the reason why filmmakers don't think about it much is that it is EXTREMELY hard to make audio sound as if its naturaly occurring, and audiences will NOT forgive bad audio.

Audio is its own Craft and skill requiring its own set of skills and focus that cannot be done well by some one not dedicating the proper attention to it. And from what you describe your production will require a considerable amount of skill just by the simple fact that you will be showing up in 'guest' kitchens that you will NOT have control over, and your sound guy needs to know how to deal with all types of situations that will definitely pop up.

My prediction is that if you dont dedicate a guy to sound , we'll be reading another post "My video production looks awesome but the audio sucks and my promo got laughed at, what when wrong?"

Good luck on making the right decision.

 

[thoomp]

Alright... I think you guys really convinced me here and thanks for speaking your minds!

I get it. If I'm fretting over getting 4:2:2 50Mbps broadcast-acceptable footage via a XF100 (the bare minimum), I should be as concerned with quality audio - better than what can be monitored on a Tascam DR-100. Thanks for helping me NOT shoot myself in the foot.

For now, I think that it may be wise to let a dedicated freelance sound person bring their own equipment to record audio for the sizzle reel and the pilot footage, and to let them worry about tackling kitchen audio reflections. Maybe I'll hang onto some of the equipment we already have for not-so-important websiodes and the like.

So many thanks for taking the time to be honest about it, guys. The truth is sometimes the hardest to hear - but is always the most important to hear.

 

[Steve House]

...

For now, I think that it may be wise to let a dedicated freelance sound person bring their own equipment to record audio for the sizzle reel and the pilot footage, and to let them worry about tackling kitchen audio reflections. Maybe I'll hang onto some of the equipment we already have for not-so-important websiodes and the like.

...

There's a reason many, if not most, cooking shows are shot on a set constructed on a sound-stage and not on-location in a working kitchen.

 

[recordingwhiz]

Congrats on making a good decision.

we are here to help and not to just tell some one to go hire some one, but in some situations it is the best thing.

Cheers.

 

[paulears]

I really couldn't work this one at all. For the life of me I can't see how physically you'll fit four cameras into a space like this and keep everyone out of the way of each others shot. It sounds so much like your idea is to shoot everything and hope at least one camera got something worthwhile - but you won't know till you end, then review the material. Static shots in a kitchen shouldn't be a problem. Expecting camera people to do anything more than notice if the audio stops is my own experience - with my 'real' camera I try to wear earbud headphones and watch the meters, but frankly, my entire concentration is on the visuals, and I don't really listen to the sound - I'm just aware of it. When you have a locked off camera or are running sound, then you hear everything because that is your entire focus. I'm not sure we can give the right advice apart from just the PAY ATTENTION TO SOUND - comments you've had. If you're in a real kitchen, then you really need body worn mics in my opinion, because even with a decent condenser cardioid/hyper on a boom, you'll cast shadows and pick up all the crashes and bangs. Lavs are really important to get clear sound. Your cameras will get plenty of room sound - sound focus must be on the dialogue no matter what. All cameras and no sound op was need going to work properly.

 

[Noiz2]

I won't echo the "get a sound person" chant since you seem to have gotten that one.
What I would toss, keep, change.

I would toss the headsets for the DSLR operators. I would get something like a VMP for each unless you are going to slate shots because the VMP will have at least a shot at getting a good enough signal to sync. Toss the shot gun mounted on the camera for everything but run and gun where you are actually out side running. The lavs will sound much better. I would run them through a MixPre so your "sound guy" has some control and because it has great limiters and you can be "clip proof". More channels might be good but if you don't have an experienced mixer then I wouldn't have your "sound person" "mix".

I would use your little pocket recorders to pick up FX to add in in post. Though if you send this to a real post they will probably have or want to make better versions. But they will like to get some "real" stuff.

I probably wouldn't boom because of the space constraints, but???

I think you should try out a demo in a local kitchen and see how it goes. I suspect that you have too many cameras for the space. I suspect that a better set up would be a lock down overhead, a main camera, and a pickup camera of opportunity is about all the space will easily accommodate.

 

[BRH]

^^^ Yes. Lose one of the cameras. I didn't know those DSLR had headphone jacks...? Lose the headphones.
Lavs into mixer hardwired into main cam, shotgun on boompole standing by, and VMP on DSLR maybe.
Those commercial kitchens are NOISEY !!!! And they may not stop their regular prep for your stuff, you may have someone in the background pounding or chopping away at something.

 

[Blit]

Hi
Having worked in commercial kitchens as a much younger person I want to second (or third) the suggestion to ASAP try a demo in a kitchen. Even if your own kitchen. Turn on the dishwasher, vent fans, oven fans etc. Crowd in all the cameras and equipment do some takes and then have a beer and think about it.

Second point. Real commercial working kitchens are very DANGEROUS places. Floor always slippery, many very hot surfaces. People, perhaps your crew without comercial kitchen experience run a great risk of accidents. You owe it to yourself and your crew to make safety a priority, yes even above sound! You will need to shut down alot of kitchen equipment for quiet and safety reasons. The walk-in compressor will dim the lights! The walk-in temperature is regulated by law, economics and the desire not to poison the customers. Lots of unforseen issues. Above this post you have really great advice. You are definately taking on a challenging project. A sound guy and insurance are your friends. I wish you great luck and look forward to watching your show.