Thoughts on new high end recorder?

W

wbrock001

Well-known member
Hi All,

Just caught up in the ever swirling current of tough decision making so thought I'd ask for some other professional opinions. I consider myself a videographer but I have invested pretty heavily in my audio kit (schoeps 641, NTG 3, blimp, Loon Boom, SD 302, Zaxcom ZFR 100 w/ STA100, mogami cabling, etc). I'm currently using my ZFR with stereo adapter as the recorder for my SD 302, and it sounds great...but I'm at the point where I'd like to invest in an awesome full size recorder. So I had been looking at the SD 702 (not the T), but then the Zaxcom Nomad was announced and is now shipping. I shoot a broad range of video from weddings to corporate promotional, instructional, plays, depositions, arangetrams, etc. So there are a number of occasions where I'd like to have a great recorder (and sometimes could benefit from multiple channels), whether it be for a boom mic, 4-5 lawyers and witnesses around a table, or an output from a mixer console. In the past I used my Apogee mini me hooked up to record, but honestly a lot of times it was tough to get good audio because I think the mini me just wasn't optimized for the type of use I put it through. So then lately, I switched to the SD302/ZFR100 combo and that works much better, better limiters, range etc. But now I see the opportunity to potentially consolidate further with the nomad. Meaning one box can record more than two channels when necessary and feed it to camera etc...so its a mixer and a recorder.

So my big dilemma is whether the 6-channel nomad is a good long term investment...since it will cost $4700, its upgradable to more channels unlike the SD recorders, I do have the cash and would probably sell my SD 302 and mini me, since they'd seem redundant.

Ultimately, I have to decide what's right for me but since I can't even handle a Nomad locally (Dallas/FW) I'd like to read your opinions to help me make up my mind. Thank you all!

Bill
 
John Willett said:
For a top-end recorder, I would first look at the Nagra VI and the AETA 4MinX. These two have, IMHO, the very best quality audio.

After those I would consider the Sound Devices 788T which comes, IMHO, next in line in the sound quality stakes.
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Ha ha, okay well those are a bit beyond my budget...I guess I meant middle end! I didn't consider the SD 744 because, well for not much more I could have 6 channels and more capabilities...I just have a lingering feeling that SD is going to be doing some sort of upgrade on the 744 and 7x2 series pretty soon...and since they are not upgradable paths, that pointed me back to the nomad. Also, does anyone really use 192khz regularly? I have read that the nomad will support limited track count 192k in the future...promises are obviously worth the air they're spoken in though so... How important is 192k vs. 96k?

John, I've read across the forums and you always mention that Zax in the past didn't have the best analog, is that still true with some of these new designs? I've read reviews and no one says it doesn't sound as good as a 788 etc, all they say is they like the work flow or interface better on the 788. Since I'm not coming from one of those other recorders, I figured it would be easier to get used to for me. I love the LED meters on the SD, but then hear a lot about them getting really hot (w/ hard drives) and with RF spray...its tough to sort through what's really important... I'd think reliability and sound quality are tops.

I really want to invest in something under $5k that will be good for a very long time to come...perhaps there just isn't anything meeting that expectation for my budget?

Has anyone done a direct 788 vs nomad sound test? Thank you again for all your input!
 
Richard Crowley said:

What does "tough to get good audio" mean? How is that related to the recorder?
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Well it has built in pres and an integrated line level setting in the gain dials, but I've found it very hard with the limited meters to get really good levels and quite often I can't sit there to monitor what its doing, so levels are often too low or too high. Where with the SD 302, the meters are much more accurate and has more range...basically I've just had much better luck getting really good recordings with that combination. Its probably user error on my part with the mini me. So figured its better for someone who wants to record their voice, a guitar and stuff like that than from various mixing boards and dj systems.

Well this is operator error...I was setup to record a play with the mini me, sound good...well they cranked up the levels during the play so everything was clipped afterwards. The SD seems to handle those situations better. Audio magic perhaps! I just know I've gotten much better results with SD.
 
Indeed the SoundDevices mic preamps (and limiters) are spoken of with almost magical reverence in these circles. They appear to be designed for exactly that kind of use in the field under less than ideal conditions. OTOH, products like the Apogee MiniMe seem more like "studio queens" and not nearly as well suited for more chaotic field use.

While both are out of my budget range, the Sound Devices would be more attractive to me at this point as the Zaxcom Nomad seems to be suffering from birth/growing pains and doesn't seem to be enjoying a particularly auspicious start-up experience. While SoundDevices boasts a solid gold reputation.
 
So in other words, the nomad may be a bit too new right now to be worth the investment until all the kinks are worked out? Do you know of any reports that it just flat out failed? I know they're adding features with regular updates so it is still a work in progress. I was really excited about the automixer capability which isn't yet available, but that would be great for depositions. Right now I have to use my 302 for 3 mics, then one from 302 into 1 camera channel, and then use the second camera channel for a fourth mic, and the zaxcom zfr as a standalone lapel mic recorder for backup. Having one box with 6 channels that can record and output to camera just sounds really nice and I know nothing under $5K other than the nomad can do that... Oh, my mistake, there is the tascam, but that doesn't look like a bag type unit.

If the pres, a/d converters etc are top notch or at least comparable to the 788 or even 744, then the nomad sounds pretty good, right?

If the SD 744 had 4 pres then I'd consider it more, but at its price that seems to be a major oversight and warrants an update to be up to speed with the market. The 702 series is only two channel so not much else they could do with that other than perhaps updating the pres and other components to 788 levels...but they sound pretty awesome as is... I just don't want to blow my cash and regret it later, though I guess resale is okay on those?
 
I wouldn't be opposed to a used SD 788, etc. But they don't come available very often and you don't appear to get any significant savings buying used. Perhaps that answers your resale question.

I would think that you could rent the candidates in DFW somewhere, can't you? Or at least go down to the rental house and fondle them?
 
I meant the 702, if I just got that as a stop gap for now, but I keep hearing folks say buy the best, buy once. I'd like to just buy once! But obviously can't afford the "best-best." ha ha
 
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The Shure SCM410 is a pretty nice little auto-mixer, although only 4 inputs and mains-power only. But I believe you can link 2 or more together.
Not a bag solution, but probably ideal for depositions, etc. But then do you need multi-track (>2) recording for bag jobs?
Auto-mixing means no post-production, also.
 
Yes, I actually was looking at the 410 in the past, but its job was too specialized. As in I would have very few other things to use it for beyond depos. There are many ways to get around problems and make what I have work, but in the long run it takes longer to setup, more equipment, more power sources. Man, I remember coming to a depo with camera, tripod and several other bags just to accommodate the mini me and various mics, extension cords...how sweet it would be to be able to show up with mic/cable bag, mixer/recorder bag, camera and tripod...done! I feed mix to camera, and have backup iso recordings of each mic all with one device! Small and elegant setup.
 
In terms of audio quality...Zaxcom, Sound Devices, Nagra...they are all top notch. They all make audio files, so the end result is the same in terms of workflow. What you need to look at is budget, how well a recorders works for your situations (and it sounds like you need something that will be very flexible), and how a company deals with service. While I'm sure the new Nagra is a fine machine, it hasn't really taken off here in the states. The distribution network and support never really seemed to be up to par with the domestic manufacturers. Sound Devices makes killer stuff, but if you need more than a few XLR inputs, then you will be limited, but they are rock solid, sound great, and are easy to use. The new Nomad from Zaxcom is very new, and having sold a TON of Zaxcom products in the past, I can safely say that the very first units to roll of the line tend to have a larger than normal percentage of units that have problems. Zaxcom and their dealers are great at solving these issues, and it usually takes 6 months to a year for everything to get ironed out. The nice thing is, though, all the fixes are usually done through firmware updates. I think I only had to send a Deva V to the factory once or twice when I was selling about 10 a week for a year for hardware issues. So...all that being said, I would seriously look at a Sound Devices 788T or a used Zaxcom Fusion (or a new one if you really want). Both Sound Devices and Zaxcom have great customer service. The Nomad is really cool, but you might be on a waiting list of you order one right now. If you want to buy a new Fusion, you could probably get it pretty quick. I don't know what Sound Devices has coming, as they don't even tell me what is going to be new, and I'm good friends with them. They hold their cards really close to the vest.

I'd hold on to that ZFR100 and 302, BTW. That's a nice little backup combo. That's a great little stereo sound effect recording rig.
 
If you want more insight on the nomad, then I suggest looking up the threads for it on jwsoundgroup.net, where it has been thoroughly discussed. It's new and does have some quirks and much still in development, but none of the units sold to the people on that forum seem to malfunction in any way. It's very flexible and a good deal, but I think the waiting list is pretty long. It's also made for bag use, so if you are not depending on using a bag, then I think a fusion can be a good idea (which can also be used in a bag, even though it's a little bigger).
 
wbrock001 said:
Ha ha, okay well those are a bit beyond my budget...
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Well, you did say "high end" so I put the best - though I did leave off the very expensive Aaton Cantar. :grin:


wbrock001 said:
John, I've read across the forums and you always mention that Zax in the past didn't have the best analog, is that still true with some of these new designs? I've read reviews and no one says it doesn't sound as good as a 788 etc, all they say is they like the work flow or interface better on the 788.
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My knowledge comes from the original Zaxcoms where it was clear that their knowledge of digital technology 9and ergonomics) was excellent, but their knowledge of analogue technology lagged far behind. If they have now got a top-notch analogue engineer on board they will be better, if not, I would be worried. That's my personal opinion.


wbrock001 said:
I really want to invest in something under $5k that will be good for a very long time to come...perhaps there just isn't anything meeting that expectation for my budget?
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That's a funny budget (about £3,500 in UK terms I think) as it falls between two camps - a bit too low for the top end pro stuff, but above the mid-end stuff.

The basic AETA 4MinX sells in the UK for under £5k, so that would be about $7-8k I would think.

Next down is the SD 744T.
 
Mr. Brock 101,
YOu say you would consider a 702 before the 744 because the 744 only has 2 preamps? Use your 302 with the 744 for the extra preamps.
Any more complicated and you are at diminishing returns..... operating camera and audio at the same time. Both will suffer.
 
John Willett said:
My knowledge comes from the original Zaxcoms where it was clear that their knowledge of digital technology 9and ergonomics) was excellent, but their knowledge of analogue technology lagged far behind. If they have now got a top-notch analogue engineer on board they will be better, if not, I would be worried. That's my personal opinion.
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Did you ever play with the Deva II? Remember the "zipper" artifact on the fader knobs? That's gone now. The analog side of their gear is pretty good these days. Right up there with everyone else. I haven't done a shoot out with a new Deva and a Nagra, though. I know Nagra has always had absolutely stellar front ends on them. I knew guys that would look for older broken nagra tape machines just to pull the mic pres out and make mixers with them. They sounded amazing. It was like a having a portable Neve.
 
[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]If I was going to spend near $4k for a new or used 744 I may as well wait for a nomad because it's at least upgradable. I have been doing a lot of thinking about my true needs thanks to some excellent posts. While 4 or 6 channels are handy for depositions, they are a relatively small portion of my business, and I can get by 95% of the time with the 302 and extra camera channel to give me 4 inputs and 5 with the zfr100 as a standalone mic recorder. I'm also not an audio whiz like many of you so it's very unlikely I'd ever use it's full capabilities. I don't record live music where more than 2 tracks would be used. I've never shot a narrative where more than 2 wireless mics were used at the same time. So from a pure business perspective investing in a 4 or 6 channel recorder may be folly. I guess I just got caught up in the excitement of the latest technology and it has gotten pretty good reviews and will probably be a totally badass device when it's feature complete. I also have no doubt that it will force SD and others to play a little catch up. So I'm kind of thinking back to looking at a 702. I guess by the time I really need more channels, there will be better devices on the market, or at least it won't be 3-4 month wait on the nomad. I always try to look toward the future when investing, and I know audio is a much better long term investment comparable to investing in good lenses since new cameras are always coming and going, but for now such a large investment in one device would probably be wasteful for my needs when I could get a 702 and a schoeps cmit or sanken cs3e and other accessories for the same or less money. And having those mics would probably give me much better overall results than a 6-track recorder mixer whose capabilities I never fully use. [/FONT]
 
I'm a video/audio generalist since I have to do both well but am not per se a master of either since I do have to divide my attentions. When budgets allow I do hire help so I can focus on fewer aspects or hire specialists. I just shot a reality show pitch for some folks that flew in from LA, they didn't want to pay for an audio specialist so yes I ran a camera (stationary) and handheld the boom for the interviews while the dp manipulated his camera for tighter dynamic views. By the way, holding a boom for over 30 minutes straight is quite a challenge. I'm just finding that at a certain level we are asked to do more with less...and I'm not sure how to push that trend back because we got excellent rate for kit and time and got them excellent audio and video to work with for what it was. But I guess if the show is picked up, then specialists will be necessary since there would be a lot more going on. I also shot camera for pinks all out and for that they hired audio guys but they were just feeding the boom or wireless from host directly to camera by cable. So each had a mixer with wireless handheld, wireless lapel, and boom options but no standalone recorder.
 
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