Thinking of cheap redheads (again)...

D

dmitrizigany

Veteran
I now it's been discussed ad nauseam... but...

On eBay there seems to be a whole bunch of "no name" 800W redheads in the €150-170 range for 3x 800W inc stands and case. They all look very similar (if not exactly alike). For example these:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/141084387522?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Then there's the PhotaREX brand that has it's kit available for €319. They seem different than the others and the stands are 270cm instead of 200cm on the cheaper ones.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/121122019069?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
(on their regular website the kit is €379)

Now I wonder. Are the PhotaREX ones of any better quality? Does anyone know? Taller stands would be handy, but if there's no real difference, I could get the cheap ones and buy three extra stands and still get away with spending less money.

I know most of you will say "don't cheap out, buy quality, you will thank yourself in the long run". And yes, I know. I just don't have the money and they won't be seeing that heavy use so I'm not too concerned if they are a bit flimsy. But if the PhotaREX ones are at least somewhat better and maybe with certified electronics then I'd rather get those.

thanks

DZ
 
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Buy once, cry once. That's the mantra. Stick to it.

These are the same crappy units up for sale everywhere else. I've encountered more than I'd ever want to on low-budget productions and the simple fact is - you can't trust them to turn on every time. And they blow up waaaay too frequently. I've had three just explode on me on separate shoots for no apparent reason.

A good set of redhead will literally last you 20 years, probably longer. I know multiple gaffers who have ancient redheads and blondies in their kits - for the simple reason that they just keep working. These cheap, crappy ones don't. So sure, save yourself some money and buy some - but you'll be kicking yourself when you have to buy completely new fixtures when these ones go and you'll have spent as much as you might have buying proper ones in the first place.

If you can't afford three proper lights, then start off with two, or even just one - and build from there.

Clint Eastwood explains it best in the first 15 seconds of this clip:
 
Well, these are €300. And arri kit is almost €2000. I understand getting quality ones if they are gonna see heavy professional use. I will use them maybe once a month and they will be used only by me. If one of these break down it's €99 for a new one, including a stand. I wish I could buy the Arri ones, sure. But I just can't afford it. And I rather have light that might break than no light. These are for my personal or low budget productions. If I do critical productions I'll rent proper lights.
 
You don't need to spend €2000 on a brand new Arrilite kit. Hop on ebay and pickup used Arrilite 1000/800 fixtures for a couple of hundred dollars each, or Lowel Omni Lights are another really solid open-face light, or Ianiro, or Photon Beard. It doesn't take too much looking to find used kits at good prices, and the advantage is that it's fine to buy good ones used - because they'll most likely still work just fine (there's a reason you hardly ever see the cheap chinese kits trying to be resold).
 
The only real drawback on these is electrical. I needed to rewrite mine because the 3 core cables went as far as the switch then it was two core to the head. No earthing at all. It meant new cable, earth bonding and some heatproof braid. It then passed the PAT test we use here in the UK. Physical downsides are soft barn doors - you can bend them with your fingers, slightly flimsy barn door holders with too much slack but worst of all no safety glass. When the lamp shatters red hot glass goes everywhere. I had some old mesh scrims which I used. The up down movement clamp is also a bit weak and I dare not do it up tight. For occasional use they're fine. If I dent them or get them wet I don't worry. In short, a disposable product that with a bit of work when new gives excellent value for money.
 
Doesn't look to be much difference to them. But even if there is buy the cheapest ones. It's only a few dollars to have a sparky rewire them and crap is crap at any price. If they don't have glass or at least mesh in them, don't get them. Even with glass/mesh, using them at home indoors you'll start a fire. Keep them away from curtains and drapes, you'll start a fire. Fall over, start a fire. They are hot. Only buy one to see if it was a waste of money.

I bought two cheap redheads from ebay a couple of years ago with mesh. The main thing I did the first day I got them was go straight back to ebay to buy some cheap fresnels. Redheads suck. They are inefficient, super hot, can't focus, really dangerously hot, draw heaps of power and deliver much less light for the amps than you expect. Get worklights, the only difference is the barndoors (which are less effective on an open face anyway).

Pay a bit more and get fresnels. A lot more flexible, superior light control, much better heat control. 3x150W, 1x650W and 1x300W will draw less power than 2x800W redheads (3x800W will possibly blow a fuse on a household circuit), let you shape the light for the subject AND the room and let you feel like a pro having all the toys. 3x150W alone will go a long way if your camera has decent iso and won't cost much more than your budget. A 650W and 300W about the same again.

I bought all my lights from photolight on ebay. There are other sellers selling similar/same for a few dollars cheaper, others for much more. I've had good dealings with them and they always ship DHL and I usually get it in 3 days. Missing parts have been replaced. On a couple of occasions I have received more lights than I ordered (got a free 650W fresnel with my fluoros because they either made a mistake or ran out of the lesser kit, yay!). Their stands are quite reasonable at the price, okay for home with sandbags but not for the field. I need c-stands next. All the lights I bought were the seller's so-called 'premium' brand of the time, Jie Tu (seems no longer available, now they sell Came). The free ones were the generic 'As Arri' which had noticeably cheaper cable and slightly thinner barn doors.

I now have 7 Fresnels and 2 fluoro biax banks. Only one needed rewiring but DO get them checked. The bad one was dangerous. It will take a sparky minutes to test and repair and will likely do it for beer. About $10 cash. All my lights are still serviceable, haven't even blown a bulb yet (one of the 150s is close but still hanging in). I am like you, they only get used a couple of times a month and in an environment I can baby them. Altogether they draw about 10A which is enough to trip the breakers sometimes when the fridge cycles. By comparison the redheads draw just shy of 7A for just two lights. And they are significantly less bright than the 650W Fresnel. At 2m I measure the 800W redheads at 1800 lux in the hotspot and under 900 lux (<50%) near the edge. The 650W at full flood casts almost the same diameter and measures 2200 lux in the hotspot and 1600 lux (~75%) at the edge. At 3m the redhead is 600lux (1/3 of the 2m reading) while the Fresnel is 970 (still almost half the 2m reading) so fall off is way better too. Benefits of a focussing lens: more light, where you want it, more evenly spread.

I am about to get my first paid gig in the next week or two so I will be getting everything I'm using tested and tagged this week which I recommend for occupational health and safety reasons: due diligence for 'just in case'. It is one thing to put yourself at risk, entirely another to risk a worker's safety or that of the public. If I am able to turn semi-pro and get regular work (the client claims he and some business buddies want a shared in-house contractor to produce web content for them - I won't hold my breath, but we'll see) then I will definitely invest in rugged brand name gear in future. For now, however, light is light and as long as the cheap gear has the basic functions of the pro gear (and doesn't kill me) I'd rather have the flexibility and options than a lifetime guarantee (on lights anyway, cheap tripod? No.)


Here's a couple of deals that might interest (I calculate should be easily sub-400 euro), search for other combos in the store:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-150W-F...264?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20e0997aa8

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/650W-300...913?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3d2ebab1
 
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Ken Hull said:
DZ,
You might consider Lowel Omni-Lights. US$150 each, and they're built like tanks. They can accept an umbrella, and Lowel makes various accessories for them.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/32175-REG/Lowel_O1_10_Omni_Light_500_Watt_Focus.html
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I haven't seen anything by Lowel available in Europe. I might of course be wrong as I haven't delved that deep into the world of lights yet. Anyone know?

RyanT said:
How about parcans? Brand new with the bulb for less than 100 dollars...
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Yes, definitely an option down the road. I have some small par cans already. Only with 75W bulbs in them though.
What attracted me to the redheads is that for €299 (or €160 for the cheapest ones) I'd get a kit with lights, stands and bags.

Since I've read in earlier topics as well as this one now, that the main problem is electronics (and general build quality), I was hoping someone new if the PhotaREX brand was maybe at least tested to be not dangerous before sold as it's twice the price of the real cheap ones.

Either way, I have no illusions that it will be great quality but I need a "quick fix" to get going. Then I can start replace them with better quality stuff when (if) my economy improves.

Also, second hand market in Europe seems vastly smaller than the one in the states so "just pick up some used xxx" is not as easy here it seems. Or I just don't know where to look.
 
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Egg Born Son said:
Pay a bit more and get fresnels. A lot more flexible, superior light control, much better heat control. 3x150W, 1x650W and 1x300W will draw less power than 2x800W redheads (3x800W will possibly blow a fuse on a household circuit), let you shape the light for the subject AND the room and let you feel like a pro having all the toys. 3x150W alone will go a long way if your camera has decent iso and won't cost much more than your budget. A 650W and 300W about the same again.
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Here's the kicker: I don't have any more to pay. So I could get one fresnel, that doesn't help me much right now.
On eBay the cheapest Fresnel kits I can find is around €310 but then it ships from outside the EU which means €100 shipping and I don't know how much in customs and VAT.
HDVideoshop here in Berlin has a kit of 2x 1000W and 2x 650W fresnels + stands and bag for €1050. That would have been great. But beyond my means currently.
 
dmitrizigany said:
I haven't seen anything by Lowel available in Europe. I might of course be wrong as I haven't delved that deep into the world of lights yet. Anyone know? . . .
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The Lowel website lists these dealers in Germany:

Dedo Weigert Film GmbH
Karl-Weinmair-Str. 10
D-80807 Munich
Phone 49 89 3561601
Fax: 49 89 3566086


VistaVision EK
Larstrasse 180
53844 Troisdorf, Germany
Phone: 492241201800
Fax: 4922412018020
 
You haven't given us any indication of why you want redheads other than that they are cheap. If that is your only concern there are other cheap options but it all depends on what you want them for. Is there a reason you need 800W? Do you need that amount of light to expose for a light hungry sensor? Do your lights need to be tungsten balanced?

Another way you could go is CFL lighting. Cheaper than fluoro banks, basically big versions of the curly household bulbs. Usually sold as continuous lighting for photography. They are cheaply mass produced but you get what you pay for - they won't last years. Usually daylight balanced (in the 5400K - 6500K) rather than tungsten balanced (3200K) and come with stands and either softboxes or umbrellas, so you can get a big soft light source rather than a point source that might need to be bounced. Speaking of, reflectors are very cheap. I always try to use them where I can just to keep the heat down in a small room.

With CFL the wattage will be lower for the amount of light per watt which comes with the twin benefits of less heat and lower electricity bill. I don't know if the rule of thumb is still x4 (a 120W CFL might be the equivalent of 480W tungsten) but there is some variation in efficiency between brands. I have had mixed results in terms of lifespan of the bulbs. They seem to either last for a long time or die pretty much instantly. Nothing in between.

But I'm only trying to offer alternatives. If you want redheads get them and pay as little as you can. They are only worklights with barndoors (same bulbs), just keep them away from anything that might burn and get some sandbags to make sure they don't fall over.
 
I'm in a very similar situation to dmitrizigany: I want some cheap but decent lights, and I'm in Europe.

My first choice were lowel pro lights, because they seem to be quite good and I don't need a lot of kick. But it's very difficult to find lowel lights in Europe at a reasonable price. You can get a two-light kit with umbrellas and carry case in the US for the price of a single light with barn doors on this side of the pond. At US prices, I would have already bought a kit of pro-lights. But at European prices, I'm still searching.

So, of course, I also found these redheads, but was really hesitant because of the temperature issues.

That's why I was very happy to find this thread.

And, in particular, the post by EggBornSon in the previous page. SOLD!! I'm giving myself a one-day cooling-off period, then I'm gettng the kit with 150+300+650+1000+dimmers for $558 (426eur), including shipping. I will have to pay around 25% more if it gets stopped at customs, which it probably will.
http://www.ebay.es/itm/150W-300W-65...830?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3d2f0c66


Edit: make that cool-off period just four hours. Once I wrote this I realized how relieved I am to stop thinking about which lights to buy and actually go and do something more productive.
 
Egg Born Son said:
You haven't given us any indication of why you want redheads other than that they are cheap. If that is your only concern there are other cheap options but it all depends on what you want them for. Is there a reason you need 800W? Do you need that amount of light to expose for a light hungry sensor? Do your lights need to be tungsten balanced?
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Well, cheap is the main reason. Then that they are relatively light and comes in kits with stands and bags. I have no car so I often have to carry things on public transport or in taxis.
I prefer tungsten.
I don't really need 800W most of the time as the FS700 is pretty light sensitive. But when filming super slow motion more light is needed. Which also means I need light that don't cause flicker at high frame rates.
I simply haven't found anything else in a complete kit that is in my current low price range.

Another way you could go is CFL lighting.
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For some reason I've been assuming that kind of light might cause flicker at high frame rates. Maybe that's not true?
 
Samuel H said:
Edit: make that cool-off period just four hours. Once I wrote this I realized how relieved I am to stop thinking about which lights to buy and actually go and do something more productive.
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Ha! Good for you! I might have gone for something similar. But apparently there's just one customs office for the whole of Berlin (3.5m+ population) so if it gets caught in customs there's hours of waiting time and I'm quite new here and my German is embarrassingly bad still. Not sure I want to deal with that trouble.

Let me know how it goes and how you like them when you get them.

I might cool off too and buy the hazer I want before deciding on lights. Which means I can't get lights til next month.
 
How about these?
Fresnel theatre lights. Might be heavy and cumbersome. But I could buy them only for the name "Lucifer Bühnen Licht" (Lucifer Stage Lights). Only €59 each. But then I'd need stands, and that thing that attach to the holder so they're easy to get on the stand (what's it called?), case etc etc...
57-2.jpg57-1.jpg57.jpg
 
Ah! The age-old story of cheap gear!!

Basically ask yourself if you are a pro (or plan to be soon enough). If the answer is yes then you will be wasting your money on cheap gear. However if you are a hobbyists then you would be doing so getting expensive pro gear. You mention that you will be using the lights rarely - no more than once a month - that's 12x per year. Trust me, those lights will not survive 12 shoots. How i know it? Because i too used to buy cheap junk. I stopped after on Arri knock off yoke turned to dust (literally!) in hands of one gaffer, while on another shoot the lens of another knockoff broke apart (apparently 300w is too much heat for that lens !) and yet on another shoot the wheels fell off while rolling one of those cases. All within probably 10 short shoots.

If i were you i would buy 2 quality lights for your next shoot and then go from there. Each time you have a shoot get 1 extra quality light/item. That way you will be buying something bot useful and something that will last you through your career.
I'm CONVINCED early on someone was giving me the same advice but i chose not to listen... if only i could go back in time and smack some sense into my youthful self.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
In a year and half when you are throwing those $250 lights into garbage you will be thinking: "and i could have had 1 used Arri 650 for the price of this pile of junk i'm throwing out now".
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Problem is, it's not very easy to come by used gear here. And even so it's a lot more expensive than in the states.
And one light won't get me very far. Isn't it it better to have some light, any light, that allows you to shoot things than to sit around and wait for months until you can afford those cool lights that the "pros" use?
I'm thinking of picking up a couple of the Lucifer Fresnels I posted above, please take a look and see want you think of those.
 
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