THE VEGAS CHALLENGE - can we pull this off?

Deuceofspades

Deuceofspades

Veteran
I now have come to the end of my journey. After editing a 2.5 hour film in vegas, seemlessly, I must now start to prepare for mixing and color correcting and - last but not least - preparing for DVD burning.

I am starting this thread to cover this last stage of making a huge film using Vegas as a NLE and to pick brains about the many questions and possible technical problems I am encountering. I will need your help to solve them.

When I started this film, many people said it could not be done with Vegas. I intend to prove them wrong (hopefully HAHA!).


I will post specific questions below.
 
CHALLENGE #1

To figure out how to export all my sound files in AAF format so that my pro mixer friend Patrick Ciccone, can mix the film for me. I am using the HVX200 so I am working with .mxf files and Raylight as a plug in.

PROBLEM #1:

The idea to export the sound info in AAF file partially flops. Patricks' team of experts are trying to walk me through this process. They suggested I export my sound files as AAF files:

<<Let's do a test with one of your average sized scenes...

Since you're using Vegas, I think it would be best to deal with audio and video exporting separately--ie we'll be exporting audio-only AAF's, and then separately outputting the corresponding video file a different way which we'll get into later. To separate these elements and deliver our first AAF session test you can follow the procedure below:

1. Open the scene/project you'd like to export and immediately go to the FILE menu and choose SAVE AS to save a new version of this particular scene/project. Name this duplicate project something different that will let you know it's going to contain only audio. Basically, we're creating a duplicate Vegas project that you can edit without screwing up your actual project. Pick your preferred location and press SAVE.
2. Now in our newly created duplicate project, delete the video tracks leaving only the audio for the scene.
3. Go up to the OPTIONS menu and choose PREFERENCES at the bottom. In the GENERAL tab scroll down and make sure the "AAF EXPORT - USE FRAME UNIT FOR AUDIO" and "AAF EXPORT - USE CLIP-BASED AUDIO ENVELOPE" boxes are NOT checked. (if they are checked you should uncheck them). Press OK.
4. Go to the FILE menu and choose SAVE AS.
6. Near the bottom of this window, click the SAVE AS TYPE pull-down menu and choose EDIT PROTOCOL COMPLIANT AAF FILE (.aaf)
7. Below that, check the EMBED WAVE/AIFC MEDIA box.
8. Pick the location you'd like to save the AAF file and press SAVE.>>



I followed above and it seemed to work fine on my end, but they ended up with blank files - they cannot read .mxf audio files:

<<So I was right, there wasn't any actual audio in that AAF. The audio file
"regions" were there but they were empty. So we could see where your files start
and stop but there was no audio in them. The only piece of audio that actually
made it through was the 2-pop which was a .wav file. The other files were all
.mxf files, which is probably why they didn't come through>>


It appears their studio cannot see / read .mxf audio files... How do I work around this problem?
 
Have you tested from your end whether the files contain sound, e.g. I'd presume they could be dropped onto a Vegas timeline and played?

But I'm confused by their response, which implies they were expecting .aaf files but you actually created .mxf files?
 
I think they're expecting the AAF files to have timecode, which I don't think Vegas does (but I very possibly could be wrong.)

A simpler way is to split the dialogue into several tracks so dialogue doesn't overlap on the same track, and then render as a series of veeeeery long .aiff or .wav (each one as long as the movie). These are all bit-for-bit locked to picture, and they can then quite easily split into individual components into their DAW -- and they'll already be sorted into characters, etc. if you split them properly to begin with.

A third option is that Vegas is a very good sound editor to begin with (Vegas started as a multi-track audio recorder intended to replace Sound Forge). Edit the audio in Vegas!
 
Well, you don't understand, those guys are the PROS PROS. Patrick mixes for all the big studios, he mixed for Tarantino! I'd be crazy to turn down his offer to help me mix my film for free, just cause I want to mix it in vegas... they have gear and software that can do magic that I cannot do here out of my little guest room. I have to be realistic and acknowledge the fact they will do a MUCH BETTER job at it than I ever could.

So, back to exporting the sound.
 
pmark23 said:
I think they're expecting the AAF files to have timecode, which I don't think Vegas does (but I very possibly could be wrong.)
Click to expand...

They gave me a 2 pop to place before the first frame and that's what they use to sink everything. I don't even know what AAF files are. What are they?

Basically they want the sound files without my pans/volume curves, EQ and effects, which they want to redo from scratch (ogh)...

So I guess that AFF files are supposed to export the audio and some info (start and end points etc...) but not the fades, volume, etc...

Who can elaborate on that?
 
CHALLENGE #2

Burning a DVD of my 160 minute long film.

Problem #1

I am unable to fit my entire film onto one timeline, too many nested project , too much info so vegas is crashing.

Solution:

I split the film in half and now have two timelines. Same nested projects etc, but half the amount per timeline. No problems so far this idea is working great. And I now have all the scenes done and on the timelines and they are not crashing. So far so good.

Problem #2

Now that the film is split in half how do I reunite the two halves to burn ONE DVD?

Possible solution #1

Render each scene as a .mov file and try to fit them all onto one timeline. My opinion? It will be a PITA. Cause if I want to make any manute change to a scene I have to rerender it etc... I'd rather work with nested projects.

Possible solution #2

Keep two timelines, then when time comes to do DVD architect DVD, render each timeline as a DVD architect file and then paste them together in DVD architech timeline - I LOVE THAT SOLUTION - but I think DVD architect can only take one file at a time - PLEASE TELL ME THAT I AM WRONG and that it can be done (cause then all my problems are solved)

Possible Solution #3

Render each timeline as a lossless uncompressed .mov file and then create another timeline in vegas with the two .mov files which make up the movie. Then render for DVD architect (as one file) and burn. (Will I lose quality doing it this way?)


I really like Solution #2 best. CAN IT BE DONE IN DVD ARCHITECT AND HOW???????
 
Faith,

The guy who did Corrado on Vegas had a similar problem. He couldn't get his audio files out of Vegas in a format that his audio guy could use in ProTools. Ultimately the problem was solved with this tool:

http://www.avtransfer.net/

Should give you just what you need.


Regarding Challenge #2.

Render the two timelines to a lossless format .mov or .avi doesn't matter, and there are numerous lossless choices out there. I'd use the Lagarith codec in the .avi container personally, but you can use other things. Then take those two lossless files, place them on the timeline in a new project, and create your DVD.

If this is just a "proof" that should work fine. If this is going to be a more "final" copy, then I would suggest using the re-scaler in VirtualDub with the Lanczos resize tool to take your HD sized masters down to DVD size, and then bring THOSE .avi files back into Vegas to make the Mpeg2 files with. Vegas doesn't do the best job in creating SD sized files from HD sized ones. No NLE I am aware of does this well.

Additionally, DVD Architect can certainly accomodate more than one file at a time without issue if you want to go that route.
 
PerroneFord said:
Faith,

The guy who did Corrado on Vegas had a similar problem. He couldn't get his audio files out of Vegas in a format that his audio guy could use in ProTools. Ultimately the problem was solved with this tool:

http://www.avtransfer.net/

Should give you just what you need.


Regarding Challenge #2.

Render the two timelines to a lossless format .mov or .avi doesn't matter, and there are numerous lossless choices out there. I'd use the Lagarith codec in the .avi container personally, but you can use other things. Then take those two lossless files, place them on the timeline in a new project, and create your DVD. .
Click to expand...

hi Perrone :)) Good to hear from you! Long time no talk!! OK, above is my Solution #3, not my fave way to go but could get the job done :)

PerroneFord said:
If this is just a "proof" that should work fine. If this is going to be a more "final" copy, then I would suggest using the re-scaler in VirtualDub with the Lanczos resize tool to take your HD sized masters down to DVD size, and then bring THOSE .avi files back into Vegas to make the Mpeg2 files with. Vegas doesn't do the best job in creating SD sized files from HD sized ones. No NLE I am aware of does this well.
Click to expand...

Ok, this is the part where I SHINE with my IGNORANCE: What the heck is "re-scaler in VirtualDub with the Lanczos resize tool to take your HD sized masters down to DVD size, " I'm completely lost here :embarasse... Educate me please :)

PerroneFord said:
Additionally, DVD Architect can certainly accomodate more than one file at a time without issue if you want to go that route.
Click to expand...

Ah, so that was my favorite answer yet :)... I know I tried once before and could not do it, obviously I must have done something wrong. Are you willing to walk me through it? I have never had the chance to read any help files for DV arch. No time to spare :( as a resut I barely have figured out how to get a simple DVD project to burn, have no clue as to how to do anything else (like for exemple menues etc...) and failed at my attempt to drag two clips into the same timeline.

Help please :) ??
 
clang said:
AVTransfer is $799 plus another $500 for the AAF plugin? Cough, choke, splutter :(
Click to expand...

The cost in labor to recreate the entire thing will be many times this cost. Certainnly not ideal, but it is what it is. If you have any better ideas, I am sure we'd love to hear them.
 
Deuceofspades said:
hi Perrone :)) Good to hear from you! Long time no talk!! OK, above is my Solution #3, not my fave way to go but could get the job done :)
Click to expand...

Right. Consider it the option of last resort.

Deuceofspades said:
Ok, this is the part where I SHINE with my IGNORANCE: What the heck is "re-scaler in VirtualDub with the Lanczos resize tool to take your HD sized masters down to DVD size, " I'm completely lost here :embarasse... Educate me please :)
Click to expand...

Ok, basically it breaks down like this. When you want to change the size of your video, from HD to SD or SD to HD, or anything else, there is a lot of mathematical calculations involved. Certain ways of doing this produce better results than others. The method called Lanczos is among the beest ways (Bicubic Spline is probably the best) but Vegas does not have this method. There is a free piece of software called VirtualDub, that can perform a great many tasks with video. One of the things it can do, is to use this great Lanzos rescaling method to resize your video. Basically, it wants your file as an .avi file for input, you tell it what size you want it to be when it's done, set some basic settings, and give it a name for the output file, and it does the magic. It produces an .avi file when it's done. I can walk you through it in half an hour or less.

Deuceofspades said:
Ah, so that was my favorite answer yet :)... I know I tried once before and could not do it, obviously I must have done something wrong. Are you willing to walk me through it? I have never had the chance to read any help files for DV arch. No time to spare :( as a resut I barely have figured out how to get a simple DVD project to burn, have no clue as to how to do anything else (like for exemple menues etc...) and failed at my attempt to drag two clips into the same timeline.
Click to expand...

You can't drag 2 clips onto the timeline. To make it work, you have to make them both "chapters". This is as easy as dragging them under the same munu item on the left. Double-click the first video, and then on the settings, you need to set the "end action" to play the second file. The default is to go back to the main menu. Takes longer to type than to do.
 
PerroneFord said:
Right. Consider it the option of last resort.



Ok, basically it breaks down like this. When you want to change the size of your video, from HD to SD or SD to HD, or anything else, there is a lot of mathematical calculations involved. Certain ways of doing this produce better results than others. The method called Lanczos is among the beest ways (Bicubic Spline is probably the best) but Vegas does not have this method. There is a free piece of software called VirtualDub, that can perform a great many tasks with video. One of the things it can do, is to use this great Lanzos rescaling method to resize your video. Basically, it wants your file as an .avi file for input, you tell it what size you want it to be when it's done, set some basic settings, and give it a name for the output file, and it does the magic. It produces an .avi file when it's done. I can walk you through it in half an hour or less.



You can't drag 2 clips onto the timeline. To make it work, you have to make them both "chapters". This is as easy as dragging them under the same munu item on the left. Double-click the first video, and then on the settings, you need to set the "end action" to play the second file. The default is to go back to the main menu. Takes longer to type than to do.
Click to expand...


I love you man.

OK, so I'd like to test this DVD architect burning today (I am stuck home, so can work on fiml) or tomorrow afternoon. Today is better for me thought...Are you able to walk me thorugh it over the phone? PM me about this. I have a test screening at my house Saturday, to get my feet wet before the BIG TEST SCREENING PREMIERE in Florida. Need to make sure I can burn a DVD OK or I will be dead for my big premiere.
 
David Jimerson said:
Dual-layer, especially if it's 24p. Single-layer, not a chance with any hope of quality.
Click to expand...


DAvid, thanks for info and let me go over what I currently do to burn a DVD at home. I render the project using Vegas DVD architect generic template and then burn in DVD acrhitect. Since the longest thing I have ever burnt was a promo DVD of 1 hour, I have never had to worry about space. So regarding changing anything or picking between single or dual layer, does DV architect give you the option?

So now my questions:

For the DVD I am sending to Florida how should I burn it? This is going to be a single home burnt DVD. I do want it to look as good as it can but the entire fil needs to fit on one DVD (unless we send 2 and have a short intermission in the middle of the film - but would rather not). They are playing it outdoors at night, with a very powerful pro digital projector with very large portable inflatable type screen.

Please walk me through this, starting with the rendering process in Vegas (and settings I need to have) and then finishing with the burning process in DV architect, in as much details as you are able, like you are explaining this to a 3 year old ;)... This way I'll get it from try one. If going over this via phone is easier for you I'll be happy to give you a call on my penny.

PS: You guys are so going to be named in my film credits for all the help you have given me over the last 3 years!!!!
 
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