the real film look...

Re: the real film look...


my shots were all pretty mediocre and then someone on here recommended the book "digital moviemaking" by scott billups.

great book.

one of those books where you know 90% of it (but having it all in one place is great because you found that 90% in 400 different place) but that 10% is stuff that you feel stupid for not having figured out on your own.

short answer is he had tips that really changed my work.

the simplest one, zoom button, he says something like sit down adn watch your ten favorite films with a blank sheet of paper and every time you see a zoom (not a dolly move or crane move) write it down.

when you are done you will have a blank page.

i looked at the stuff i did before and didn't realize how much i was using the damn zoom button.

now i only use the zoom button as a way to frame the shot and then i forget it exists.

his other tiips was to move the camera around like it was a big heavy film camera.

matthew
 
Re: the real film look...

[quote author=matthewd5 link=board=news;num=1084912461;start=15#20 date=05/18/04 at 19:55:57]
the simplest one, zoom button, he says something like sit down adn watch your ten favorite films with a blank sheet of paper and every time you see a zoom (not a dolly move or crane move) write it down.

when you are done you will have a blank page.
[/quote]

I'm not so sure about this. I've been training myself over the last 12 years not to use the zoom button. But I watch things critically, and the zoom IS used to great effect when it is used 1) very sparingly and 2) for a REASON. Sometimes, it is a slow dramatic zoom. Rarely, it is a quick zoom in to portray shock. More commonly, it is a combination zoom out and dolly back (I think that's called "truck," right?) so the frame is opened up a bit as another actor joins in a conversation.

I'm talking about movies and old TV shows. Some of the new TV drama shows - boy the "rules" are broken constantly, panning side to side in a conversation - I need Dramamine.

Back to DOF. I checked out that site Barry mentioned with the screen. It looks really cool. It's small, but hey, the really shallow depth of field is going to be on close up shots mostly anyway. If I had a spare $547 to enhance my depth of field (and didn't mind the cumbersome nature of the prop) I'd get it. To bad there wasn't some magical attachment onto the front of the DVX100 that was $547 that allowed control of depth of field - that'd sell pretty well (no lugging around a contraption).
 
Re: the real film look...

david,

thanks for your input. i agree all those elements you mentioned are important even more so then shallow depth of field in creating good moving visuals.

those elements though are not mutually exclusive to either film or video. just like 24p is now.

i'm not arguing with anyone in this matter since different elements are more important to others depending on the artist, situation etc... just thinking out loud what's important to me. didn't mean this thread to turn into what's most important...

i was so used to using a particular technique in one medium that didn't transfer as well as the other elements regarding shooting moving pictures.

i will have to learn other techniques to isolate my subjects as warranted other then relying just on depth of field due to the limitations of minidv.

sorry if this is old hat but discovering video has really got me excited in the creative field again.

in addition to the other suggestions, got some feedback from a friend who suggested adding a touch of smoke to the backround to soften it up a little bit.

thanks again to everyone for contributing to the thread. i can't wait to finally shoot something so i can post it for feedback. it will suck but gotta start somewhere.

fyi, i haven't purchased a dvx100a because i purchased lights first. i know seems a little backwards.

chung
 
Re: the real film look...

David,

How do you create a shallow DOF in post? (I've got Final Cut and After Effects).
 
Re: the real film look...

Uhm, just to mention the conclusion from what Barry already said in the first place: Since DOF is dependent on the focal length AND iris, of course there IS an obvious possibility to lower DOF:

1. Go further away from what you shoot and use a long focal length
2. Krank up your iris (using less light or ND's)

I did that very successfully on a recent short film (with a Sony though). We even went out of the room and shot through the windows/doors. This increases the required focal length and therefore shallows the DOF. (some people might remark that this solution kinda changes the impression of the images, since you're filming in tele range. Thats true, but still it worked fine for me.)
 
Re: the real film look...

I may sound like an idiot...again...but here goes...

Aren't there adaptors out there that let you attach more cine-like lenses to achieve the shallow DOF shots? Also, I acted in a film (shot on an XL-1, sorry) but he used an adaptor on the lense that, not only allowed film lenses, but was filled with a liquid and some kind of super fine gold powder in solution that softened the over-all look and was supposed to give it more of a film feel.

I'm still trying to catch up to the director to get my reel and see the finished product, but the adaptor was grey and a little boxy, but looked cool on the camera and it may work for DVX100's as well. It was a $20,000 adaptor, so of course a rental. I'll let you know more if I find him.
 
Re: the real film look...

You're probably referring to the P+S Mini35Digital or Pro35Digital adapter which costs a hell of a lot of money. This little thingy uses cine lenses of different types (PL-mount, etc). Actually the lenses project the picture on a focussing screen within the adapter and then the Mini-DV films this focussing screen. You get the exact DOF of the cine lens, but you'll loose light.

Many people like it a lot, I consider it "too much".

http://www.pstechnik.de/

No, its not cheaper here in Germany. *sigh* :-/

Concerning the fluid/gold thing, I have no clue what you're talking about, but my guess is, it won't create an effect that you're better doing in post (i.e. grain)
 
Re: the real film look...

[quote author=magicdavek link=board=news;num=1084912461;start=15#23 date=05/18/04 at 20:49:34]David,

How do you create a shallow DOF in post? (I've got Final Cut and After Effects).
[/quote]

OK -- barebones answer (it's more nuanced than this in practice):

Create a mask to isolate the foreground elements you want to keep in sharp focus. Keep the masked foreground as your upper layer. (By itself it will have the foreground elements and everything else will be black.) Then, put the background elements on a lower layer and apply some blur to it (for a soft focus look). The end result will be a simulation of a shallow DOF.

Again, that's just a basic A-B-C explanation of the principle.
 
Re: the real film look...

matthewd5,

Were any of your favorite films by Kubrick? Probably not, because he used zooms all the time. The point is - figure out what works for you. I really don't like movies that are zoom crazy but that is because they are used too many times, never really with a purpose and never effectively. One thing I love about my DVX100A is the slow zoom setting. Nothing like a creepy slow zoom.
 
Re: the real film look...

[quote author=magicdavek link=board=news;num=1084912461;start=15#21 date=05/18/04 at 20:17:39]To bad there wasn't some magical attachment onto the front of the DVX100 that was $547 that allowed control of depth of field - that'd sell pretty well[/quote]

There is, but it's not $547, it's $10,000 (of course I'm referring to the mini35).

The old adage still applies: you want it good, fast and cheap?  Pick two.

(actually, that's not even accurate, because I want it good and cheap, and am willing to wait... but there's nothing coming down the pike).

Some day somebody may perfect one of those homemade mini35 devices for the DVX, and maybe that'll prove to be a reasonable alternative. I have my doubts about that ever working though -- the tolerances for the ground glass are so incredibly tight that I doubt any home hobbyist is going to be able to produce a moving ground glass that rides in an exceptionally vertical plane with absolutely *no* front-to-back wiggle room...
 
Re: a little clarification...

Re: a little clarification...

[quote author=action link=board=news;num=1084912461;start=15#18 date=05/18/04 at 19:15:47]
in videography i also use infinite depth of field but just like still photography there are situations in which i would like the depth of field to be shallow and in those instances how would i acheive it in video.[/quote]
Again, there is very little you can do, because the lens on the video camera is so extremely short focal-length. Search for the DOF tutorial on this site and it'll explain all that you need to do (and indeed, all that you CAN do) to get the shallowest DOF possible.

would it stand to reason that if shallow depth of field is very difficult to acheive in the minidv format then being able to acheive this would make minivideo look more like film than anything else since now we have 24p in the said format?
Click to expand...
Shallow DOF would be nice to have, certainly, and would be a great creative tool to add to your toolbox. But part of the price you pay for shooting on miniDV is that you lose that option (for the most part). You can't get something for nothing. If you want shallow DOF, that's one of the bonuses you get for shooting 35mm film. If you want to save money by shooting on miniDV, shallow DOF goes out the window.

About the only way you're going to get shallow DOF under the circumstances you describe (limited space, cramped quarters etc.) is by using the SoftScreen: http://indietoolbox.com . There's pretty much no way to do it optically, in-camera by itself.
 
Re: a little clarification...

Re: a little clarification...

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=news;num=1084912461;start=30#30 date=05/19/04 at 10:49:27]by using the SoftScreen[/quote]

That's a cool idea. I wonder if it would be easy making one of these? Would a very fine screen material or possibly frosted shower curtain work?

Also, the only thing that this wouldn't solve would be focus shifts between the foreground and background.
 
Re: the real film look...

I tried dozens of materials before hitting on that particular situation.  I tried nets, screens, shower curtains, shower doors, lots of things.  Nothing had the pure optical clarity you need, and the problem is exacerbated by the deep focus you typically get on a video camera: if there's any texture or pattern to the surface, it'll show up in your shot!  Eventually I put together a product that's optically invisible to the camera but blurs the scene behind it, and it does so progressively: objects that are further away are more out-of-focus than objects that are closer, and that was a key consideration.

I've since sold the product line and the company that bought it has applied for patents, so I can't discuss what the actual ingredients in a SoftScreen are.  But I can say this: it works.

Regarding focus shifts: yes, that is more difficult to do.  You can sort of lamely mock something together, by moving the screen from being right in front of someone to being further away from them, but it'd be challenging to get it right and have it look good.  But I guess it's theoretically possible.

Also, there are certain looks you can get with 35mm that the SoftScreen can't do: the shot of where someone's eyes are in focus, but their nose and their ears are out of focus, for example.  The SoftScreen primarily does out-of-focus backgrounds.  That's pretty much all it does, but it'd provide an acceptable out-of-focus-background look for probably 80% of shooting situations where you're doing a head shot.
 
Re: the real film look...

shooting at a great distance from the subject with full zoom and wide aperture (2 internal NDF on) gave me exellent results, very narrow DOF.
 
Re: the real film look...

Barry: "We want to have what we dont have"...

A new philosophy is born. 8)
 
Re: the real film look...

Does anyone have a link to the DOF tutorial that Barry mentioned here? I did a search for DOF Tutorial; Tutorial; and Depth of Field Tutorial, and nothing came up.

Thank for the help.
 
Re: the real film look...

There is a way to put depth of field into a miniDV shot in post but it takes patience and the Sony Vegas 5 NLE. Vegas 5 has a mask generator which has a bezier curve drawing tool which can shape the mask as you desire. You can (learn to) draw the bezier curves around, say, the actor's face in a close shot, and use the mask and a blur filter to slightly blur the background behind her. It's far less work to do this with a fairly static shot, since each time the subject moves, you have to move the bezier mask to fit it (Vegas will automatically put a keyframe at each motion change).

I haven't done this myself yet--just repeating what's in the manual--but I will be doing it for certain closeups in my DV feature I just started on in post.
 
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