The next step up from the NTG-2

markblasco

markblasco

Well-known member
I've got an NTG-2, and the level output on it is weaker than I'd like. Is there another mic that is a step up from this (it's not worth replacing if I'm not going to be getting anything better) that has a higher output with less noise? Is there something else in a similar price range worth looking into, or is this the best I'm going to do without spending $600+?
 
First things first, what are you using to drive the mic, how much gain, how is the mic positioned?
In other words, are you sure the mic is the problem instead of how it's being used/technique?

All the Best!

Dave
 
All good questions. For a cheap mic, it's a good mic. It's all about the gain structure. Make sure your gain stages are set up correctly.
 
The NTG-2 does have less output than most shotguns. The Audio Technica AT897 would be a step sideways, a bit more output but the difference would be marginal. What are you using to record? The H4n and DR-100 also have problems with input levels not being as hot as the could be. (That's not really fair, though; they are aimed at the music crowd who customarily deal with much higher signal levels like guitars, drums and singers - they were never meant for production sound.) The combo of the NTG-2 with the H4n is notorious for low levels.

Welcome to the perils of budget audio!
 
OK, I'm not saying there is a problem, I'm just looking to see what the next logical step up is, and since it is well known that the NTG2 is a low gain mic, if there is one that has a bit more gain. I'm not concerned with the rest of my signal path. I am an audio guy, have a recording studio, and know how to set a clean gain structure in my sleep. These video mics are a total mystery to me, however, so I'm looking for suggestions along that route.

I know all about the H4N and the low gain issues with the NTG-2. I wrote a detailed post about how I tested this equipment to get the best signal to noise ratio. Even with a very clean signal path, the mic just has a little too much self noise for my taste, so I'm looking for a better solution, if there is one that is not leaps and bounds more expensive.

Also, I'd prefer something that didn't need phantom power, although that is not a requirement.
 
Mark,

Although there are hotter mics out there, you might consider a mixer to add gain. A Sound Designs MixPre would be a good start, it would get you to a line input on your recorder and give you all the gain you could want with better preamps. If your budget allows, a SD302 has the same preamps, but has 3 inputs and a bunch of extra features besides. A mixer will end up being the foundation for your audio kit allowing better control and limiters over a recorder or video cam. Dynamic mics are not the answer since they will have even less output. Dynamics are used mostly for loud music or vocals and interviews where the speaker eats the mic.

Grant
 
markblasco said:
I'm not concerned with the rest of my signal path. I am an audio guy, have a recording studio, and know how to set a clean gain structure in my sleep. These video mics are a total mystery to me, however, so I'm looking for suggestions along that route. Also, I'd prefer something that didn't need phantom power, although that is not a requirement.
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Not to belittle the fact that you are an audio guy, but there are different levels of experience. Some folks have been working professionally in the field for 35 years and know slightly more than someone with say only 2 years experience.
The reason I asked earlier about what you were using to drive the mic, the gain structure used and the mic positioning, is because the mic pre you are using may not be up to the task and or your mic technique may be in question. Admittedly mics for video use are a total mystery to you, and if we can help you sort out the problem it could save you the expense of purchasing a new microphone.

All the Best!

Dave
 
I appreciate that everyone wants to help. My question here is not whether or not my gain structure is correct, or if my equipment other than the mic is up to snuff. I am simply asking if there is another mic in a similar price range or slightly higher that is equal or better in quality and has a higher output. If there aren't any, that would be a fine answer, but with the amount of times that people say their NTG-2 isn't working well with the H4N, and that it is a low gain mic, I want to know what the other options are.

I have taught audio to students at a university for almost 10 years. I know how to test all of my equipment to find the cleanest gain structure. I have used the NTG-2 plugged straight into my camcorder with an adapter, plugged straight into the H4N, and also plugged into various preamps ranging from Shure, Digidesign, API, Neve, etc. going into several different recording studio interfaces. I understand how important every piece of the signal chain is, and I'm sure some day I will have questions about field mixers and recorders. Today, however, I would like to stick specifically to mics.
 
Mark- I wasn't just being flippant... I really do like the NTG-3 & think that it is the perfect answer for your needs & budget. I had the NTG-1 (same as the NTG-2, but without battery) and am much more impressed with the sound & handling characteristics of the NTG-3. You'll hear from a lot of soundies that the Sennheiser MKH-416 is the pro's choice, and it is a great mic- but it's more expensive & has a tighter "sweet spot" which translates to a more experienced/careful boom-op.
 
John,

OK, I didn't know if you were kidding before about the NTG3 (3 must be better than 2, right?). I'll put that on my list of mics to look into, but I was hoping there was an option under $500 or so. Maybe there isn't a better option for under $500?
 
Then the simplest thing would be to make a short list of mics in your price range and compare their output impedance to find one that matches your needs.

By the way I wasn't trying to be cocky earlier, I don't use an NTG-2 myself but I did help a local indie film guy solve the same issue with his, and I was just trying to be helpful.

Good Luck!

Dave
 
markblasco said:
John,

OK, I didn't know if you were kidding before about the NTG3 (3 must be better than 2, right?). I'll put that on my list of mics to look into, but I was hoping there was an option under $500 or so. Maybe there isn't a better option for under $500?
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The Sennheiser ME66 is in the right price range and has a higher output, 50mV/Pa compared to 15mV/Pa for the Rode. The downside is that most people find it harsh sounding.
 
The next step up from an NTG-2 would be the Audio Technica 4073. It is well known for having a hot output. However, once you're at the $500-600 level, you may as well go for the additional smoothness of an NTG-3. Here, listen to these samples I recorded straight into a Canon XL2 a few years back, it's the NTG-2, the ME66, the 4073 and the 416. For reference, the 416 sounds remarkably similar to an NTG-3. http://www.dvcreators.net/shotgun-shootout/
 
Mark,

A few things you should take note of.

First we get lots of questions that sound just like yours from 15 year olds that are trying to boom from 30 feet and going directly into a flip camera. So it is actually important, if you want to get useful answers, to give the info that you were so reluctant to put down.

Second, the desire for a battery powered mic kind of flies in the face of "I'm a big time teacher and have access to top end gear" since the battery option is largely on the consumerish end of things. Also pretty much every spec I have seen has a lower output/ higher noise for battery operation than for phantom so that would tend to defeat what you say is your main goal.

Third you must be doing studio/ music or the "video mics" would not be a mystery to you. They really shouldn't be a mystery anyway since they are microphones and act the same as well microphones. There are no "video mics" (well maybe the Rode "video mic" might qualify), they are all just mics. And music technique does not translate seamlessly to production technique.

You still have not for instance said what you are trying to do with the mic. You are not hauling the Neve out in the field and in general you should not be using the shotgun indoors so ???

If indeed all you want to know about is self noise then go look at specs and you can pretty much figure that out.

What they won't tell you is how the noise sounds and if it will be a problem for you. Nobody else can answer that question till they at least know how you are using the mic and what you are doing with it.

Your question boils down to, "I have a VW and it's not as reliable as I want, what's a better car" with out wanting to say anything about how you use it where you live what you expect out of the car etc. It's not a question that can be answered because it's not anywhere close to specific enough.

My radar also jumps up when someone starts throwing out the names thousands of dollars in equipment and then doesn't want to spend much on a mic. Most folks I know have a very considerable investment in mics.

The NTG2 is not a particularly noisy mic so the odds are that in spite your 35 years the "mystery" of video sound has got you doing something that you shouldn't.

The short answer is that self noise general goes down as $$$ goes up and the NTG3 is probably the lowest price point where you are going to make much of a jump.

Personally I would look at a good clean mic pre instead. Music pre's are more about the color (as a rule) than clean gain. A good field mic pre is all about clean gain.
Of the items you mentioned plugging the mic into.
Camcorder (you needed an adapter so it didn't even have XLR in - so almost assuredly noise city)
H4N ( not the cleanest in town and not good gain wise for the NTG2)
Shure (which one? The rebranded SD MixPre is quiet but a lot of the old Shure pre's are pretty noisy)
The rest are studio pre's. Digidesign might be a somewhat neutral clean pre but API and Neve are known for their "sound" so that is not going to be a great choice in general for production and none are designed for high gain clean sound.

So it's a lot of names to impress people but only one (maybe) would be something that you would normally hook the NTG2 up to and could truly evaluate it's self noise.

So upgrade the mic, but I suspect it won't solve the problem.

markblasco said:
I appreciate that everyone wants to help. My question here is not whether or not my gain structure is correct, or if my equipment other than the mic is up to snuff. I am simply asking if there is another mic in a similar price range or slightly higher that is equal or better in quality and has a higher output. If there aren't any, that would be a fine answer, but with the amount of times that people say their NTG-2 isn't working well with the H4N, and that it is a low gain mic, I want to know what the other options are.

I have taught audio to students at a university for almost 10 years. I know how to test all of my equipment to find the cleanest gain structure. I have used the NTG-2 plugged straight into my camcorder with an adapter, plugged straight into the H4N, and also plugged into various preamps ranging from Shure, Digidesign, API, Neve, etc. going into several different recording studio interfaces. I understand how important every piece of the signal chain is, and I'm sure some day I will have questions about field mixers and recorders. Today, however, I would like to stick specifically to mics.
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Noiz2, I appreciate that you are trying to help. I'm not going to respond to each of your comments, but I will pick a few that deserve some clarification:

I shouldn't have used the term "video mics", and should have instead said shotgun mics. This is a type of mic that I have only seen used for video work, and I have almost no experience with.

The reason I ask about a battery powered option is that it would be nice to be able to plunk it on top of my camcorder when recording birthdays or other social events, that don't warrant having a separate mixer or preamp (this is one of the things I do with the NTG-2 right now).

The reason I don't want to spend much on a shotgun mic is because this is a venture which is going to pay very little money to me. I have invested heavily in my studio and music equipment over the years, and understand the value of good equipment. I just can't justify paying $2000 for a shotgun mic that will get used for family videos on the weekends, and pulled out twice or three times a year for a video project. I can justify spending in the neighborhood of $500 or so.

I appreciate that you want me to look into other alternatives. For the sake of argument (and because that is not the area I am asking about), let's just throw the battery powered part of the equation out (since you point out that it will diminish quality), and let's leave out preamps, recorders, or anything else in the equation other than the mic.

I am not saying I have a specific problem that needs solving. I am saying that I have noticed more noise than I would like, and want to know if there is another mic in a similar price bracket that will have more gain and/or a lower noise floor. I can clearly hear that the noise floor on my NTG-2 is higher than any of my other mics. I guess it is possible I have one which is more noisy than others, so that may be part of the equation. If the NTG-2 performs just as well as all other mics in this general price range, that would be an answer to the question I am asking.

The NTG-3 has been sited several times as an option.

The reason I don't just look at the specs is that I understand the numbers only tell you a certain amount, and I would like the opinions of people who have used the gear.

I bring up the equipment I have used and my experience so that we don't have to have the discussion about technique/gain staging/etc. Those are all important things, but those can be covered in other threads.

If anyone has any other suggestions other than the NTG-3, I would love to hear them. If there just aren't any mics in that price range which will get me cleaner results, I'd like to hear that too.
 
roei z said:
They just told you about the Sennheiser ME66,
What's wrong with it?
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It's a subjective thing ... to my ears the ME66 sounds coarse, harsh, not smooth, rich, and natural like a dialog mic ought to sound. To my ears the NTG-1 or -2 sound better and they're priced lower, making them a better buy.
 
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I also had the ME66, my first shotgun, and sold it after the 1st project... No comparison to the MKH-416 I used on my second shoot. After finding a great deal on an NTG-3 ($500 demo unit) I haven't looked back. I appreciate the fact that I can hand the NTG-3 off to a relatively inexperienced boom-op & they will be able to get good dialog for me. Keep an eye out for store demo models, but make sure you get the 10-year warranty registration rights!
 
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