The look, in post or camera?
- Thread starter calito
- Start date
AQUARIUSDUDE
Active member
Re: The look, in post or camera?
I prefer in post because your not married to it that way.
I prefer in post because your not married to it that way.
taubkin
Veteran
Re: The look, in post or camera?
The fantastic thing about going post is that you avoud having all your info on the DVX's Blue channel (noisy). But be sure to do some tests so you know how your scene will look while you are shooting. If you want to have a visual reference of the post processing (New idea!): Copy your scene file in other dial position, apply the look you want on camera, and set up your shots with that scene file, then just change to a more neutral scene file for shooting. You will have all neutral material, but that will certainly look good after the post process. (Seems reasonable, no?)
The fantastic thing about going post is that you avoud having all your info on the DVX's Blue channel (noisy). But be sure to do some tests so you know how your scene will look while you are shooting. If you want to have a visual reference of the post processing (New idea!): Copy your scene file in other dial position, apply the look you want on camera, and set up your shots with that scene file, then just change to a more neutral scene file for shooting. You will have all neutral material, but that will certainly look good after the post process. (Seems reasonable, no?)
Re: The look, in post or camera?
Thank you guys,
Taubkin, noise is definitly my main concern. You said that the DVX's blue channel is noisy. Can you elaborate on that?
Can I have that same blueish look without the noise.
From what I've learned here in the dvx user, noise is a result of low light, correct? Yet the scene i'm shooting is going to be at night. Is it possible to shoot a night scene and not have noise in the picture?
The answer appears the be in lighting but I don't want to loose the dark and contrasty aspect of the picture I'm trying to paint.
Thank you guys,
Taubkin, noise is definitly my main concern. You said that the DVX's blue channel is noisy. Can you elaborate on that?
Can I have that same blueish look without the noise.
From what I've learned here in the dvx user, noise is a result of low light, correct? Yet the scene i'm shooting is going to be at night. Is it possible to shoot a night scene and not have noise in the picture?
The answer appears the be in lighting but I don't want to loose the dark and contrasty aspect of the picture I'm trying to paint.
taubkin
Veteran
Re: The look, in post or camera?
If you want contrast, you'll get rid of most of the noise. The problem is that the blue channel in the DVX is the noisier of the three (As in R-ed, G-reen, B-lue) so if you capture a neutrally colored image and add the blue tint in ost, you skipped capturing the blue channel noise while shooting. Shooting neutral and applying the blue White Balance in post will also give you more control (To fine tune the lows/mids/higs of each shot, and further work with chromatic contrast - Research on clor correcting). All I'm saying is I'd avoid shooting a bluish image to begin with to avoid getting a noisier image.
If you want contrast, you'll get rid of most of the noise. The problem is that the blue channel in the DVX is the noisier of the three (As in R-ed, G-reen, B-lue) so if you capture a neutrally colored image and add the blue tint in ost, you skipped capturing the blue channel noise while shooting. Shooting neutral and applying the blue White Balance in post will also give you more control (To fine tune the lows/mids/higs of each shot, and further work with chromatic contrast - Research on clor correcting). All I'm saying is I'd avoid shooting a bluish image to begin with to avoid getting a noisier image.
taubkin
Veteran
Re: The look, in post or camera?
That is a Rough sketch of a Minority Report Look on post (Just found out, it's actually more cyan than blue... I know I had a reddish image to start with, but I really think it's a little on the cyan side)
Before Color Correction
![url]](http://[url]http://www.zoomforce.com/dvxuser/photos/images//277203400.jpg[/url])
After Color Correction
![url]](http://[url]http://www.zoomforce.com/dvxuser/photos/images//277203434.jpg[/url])
If if should put my heart in this I would dessaturate it a notch (especially the blacks) and get rid of the glowing blue books on the right upper side of the frame, make them grayer. I'd also try a Black diffusion as I did with the white, but more subtely. The best thing you can see about my setup is that adding blue adds a whole ammount of color. You should heva a less saturated image to begin with (I mean in Production design terms) so you could have a more trendy looking image in the end. (And I'd loose the old guy if it's an action sequence... ;D)
Beware not to go crazy with the contrast. Too much of that and it will get tyring and boring.
Almost forgot... the dumb prod. designer in me forgot to change that brown book on the shelf to the bottom right on the frame. Trading it fo a book that should stay behind his head would have given me a nicer, more elegant shot... (those little details...)
That is a Rough sketch of a Minority Report Look on post (Just found out, it's actually more cyan than blue... I know I had a reddish image to start with, but I really think it's a little on the cyan side)
Before Color Correction
After Color Correction
If if should put my heart in this I would dessaturate it a notch (especially the blacks) and get rid of the glowing blue books on the right upper side of the frame, make them grayer. I'd also try a Black diffusion as I did with the white, but more subtely. The best thing you can see about my setup is that adding blue adds a whole ammount of color. You should heva a less saturated image to begin with (I mean in Production design terms) so you could have a more trendy looking image in the end. (And I'd loose the old guy if it's an action sequence... ;D)
Beware not to go crazy with the contrast. Too much of that and it will get tyring and boring.
Almost forgot... the dumb prod. designer in me forgot to change that brown book on the shelf to the bottom right on the frame. Trading it fo a book that should stay behind his head would have given me a nicer, more elegant shot... (those little details...)
taubkin
Veteran
Re: The look, in post or camera?
Wow, thanks for the feedback. I really don't fell I'm capable of taking such an endeavour. Color correcting is a paifully complicated process that i learned to enjoy. Some might say it's the Cinematography of the digital era (that was very cheasy... Even though...)...
I can recommend where to start. the Final Cut Pro Manual. (Can't find that old book? The manual is in the FCP help, all of it.) There is a chapter on color correcting that is most useful. I'll give you a rundown:
tool #1 Color Corrector: the tool that has only a color disk. That is a computer generated White Balance. Cool, pretty, but almost useless except for correcting wrong Balance issues.
tool #2 Color Corrector 3-Way: The beauty of them all, this is the master tool. This is the more important to me than the crossfade, if you know what I mean. This tool has three color discs, that work by changing the color balance in three different regions: Lows (the 75% lower portion of your luma scale), Mids (the 75% section 12.5 from 100% and 12.5 above 0%) and Highs (yes the 75% higher portion). Why such redundand portions of the screen? So the changes you make can be much more gradual. Remember the logic: If you change the highlight balance to blue, even the 25% (Very dark) parts of your frame will be bluer. But if you change your lows to yellow, they will not be as blue as the top 25%, get it? So changes won't be so abrupt and the result will be more pleasing.
There is also a change in brightness for each of those disks (sections) and they also can give you a pretty decent control in your Gamma Curve (Luminance contrast).
Now have a look at the color disk. That is organized (it's a whole color rendition system artists use) in such way that opposite colors are 180º apart. That means color contrast! Move your bubble to the right of the disk and it will get blue, move to the left and it will get yellow! Yellow is the contrastier tone from blue, while cyan is very close, not so contrasty at all.
Cool, so try to understand opposite colors and color contrast. Now it starts the fun.
Say you want a bluer image. you go to your color correction #1 and rool the balance to blue. What happens? Every god*mn thng will get bluer. The white sky, the black shadows, everything. Although it's not as bad as a tint, you certainly loose contrast and depht because you just covered everything in the same color. And a shadow should be black always (well not always, but stick around) not blue. The same for a blown sky it really should be white. So the first tool is not so good. But try your color corrector 3-Way and you're set. Just have your midtones get blue and compensate your highlights and shadows turning them a little yellow. They will be neutral again. If you overdo it they will get yellow. See how you just changed your perceptual gamma by messing up with the colors? You put contrast where there wasn't. A yellow shadow contrasts even more to a blue sky that that in a BW picture (Ever noticed that some pictures actually look muddier when you desaturate them?). So now you have it. You can start to work your magic.
Now the point about not every shadow needing to be black. When you mess up with all those toys, you might have a powerfull mood ruining tool. Remember that if Leonardo DaVinci painted the Monalisa dressed in olive and yellow, that's because she should be in those colors! So don't be that colorist *sshole that just ruined some guys photography. Use it to enhance the mood the image gives you. (or to enhance the mood of a bad photographed film... The case of the images above, If I wanted them for an action scene...)
Ok. Cool. There is more to it, so stay tuned...
Wow, thanks for the feedback. I really don't fell I'm capable of taking such an endeavour. Color correcting is a paifully complicated process that i learned to enjoy. Some might say it's the Cinematography of the digital era (that was very cheasy... Even though...)...
I can recommend where to start. the Final Cut Pro Manual. (Can't find that old book? The manual is in the FCP help, all of it.) There is a chapter on color correcting that is most useful. I'll give you a rundown:
tool #1 Color Corrector: the tool that has only a color disk. That is a computer generated White Balance. Cool, pretty, but almost useless except for correcting wrong Balance issues.
tool #2 Color Corrector 3-Way: The beauty of them all, this is the master tool. This is the more important to me than the crossfade, if you know what I mean. This tool has three color discs, that work by changing the color balance in three different regions: Lows (the 75% lower portion of your luma scale), Mids (the 75% section 12.5 from 100% and 12.5 above 0%) and Highs (yes the 75% higher portion). Why such redundand portions of the screen? So the changes you make can be much more gradual. Remember the logic: If you change the highlight balance to blue, even the 25% (Very dark) parts of your frame will be bluer. But if you change your lows to yellow, they will not be as blue as the top 25%, get it? So changes won't be so abrupt and the result will be more pleasing.
There is also a change in brightness for each of those disks (sections) and they also can give you a pretty decent control in your Gamma Curve (Luminance contrast).
Now have a look at the color disk. That is organized (it's a whole color rendition system artists use) in such way that opposite colors are 180º apart. That means color contrast! Move your bubble to the right of the disk and it will get blue, move to the left and it will get yellow! Yellow is the contrastier tone from blue, while cyan is very close, not so contrasty at all.
Cool, so try to understand opposite colors and color contrast. Now it starts the fun.
Say you want a bluer image. you go to your color correction #1 and rool the balance to blue. What happens? Every god*mn thng will get bluer. The white sky, the black shadows, everything. Although it's not as bad as a tint, you certainly loose contrast and depht because you just covered everything in the same color. And a shadow should be black always (well not always, but stick around) not blue. The same for a blown sky it really should be white. So the first tool is not so good. But try your color corrector 3-Way and you're set. Just have your midtones get blue and compensate your highlights and shadows turning them a little yellow. They will be neutral again. If you overdo it they will get yellow. See how you just changed your perceptual gamma by messing up with the colors? You put contrast where there wasn't. A yellow shadow contrasts even more to a blue sky that that in a BW picture (Ever noticed that some pictures actually look muddier when you desaturate them?). So now you have it. You can start to work your magic.
Now the point about not every shadow needing to be black. When you mess up with all those toys, you might have a powerfull mood ruining tool. Remember that if Leonardo DaVinci painted the Monalisa dressed in olive and yellow, that's because she should be in those colors! So don't be that colorist *sshole that just ruined some guys photography. Use it to enhance the mood the image gives you. (or to enhance the mood of a bad photographed film... The case of the images above, If I wanted them for an action scene...)
Ok. Cool. There is more to it, so stay tuned...
taubkin
Veteran
Re: The look, in post or camera?
The savior of the all, the master of all color correcting the ultimate car commercial tool: the limit effect.
Now here the fun begins. In those correcing systems we have a cute little thing called the limit effect and what's that? It's your second layer, your polishing (Consider the first color correcting the paint). Basically, a limit effect tool can make you choose only the portions of your image you want to affect (hue-wise, luminance-wise, etc). So I only want to change that yellow shoe for a red one. I color correct my image, get my trendy minority report feel and have this horrible blue books on the shelve. They could be green, what do you say? Ok, so I get my color corrector 3-way and apply a second layer of that on top of my messed image. Choose to limit it's effect only for that ridiculous blue tone and change it to whatever I want. See the degree of control we can have? (remember there are shortcust, the dessaturate highlights and desaturate lows tools are wonderful too!) And all that without rotoscoping the whole frame! Fast, swift, deadly. Want a pleasantville effect (All the image desaturated except for some color?) you can do it using the limit effect. And from there on. It's amazing what can one do to imagery with only te color correcting 3-way. If you know how to use it, and if you know what you want.
That's the most important thing. Knowing what you want, having a CONCEPT. I don't mean that as in advertising, I mean that in the full value of the word concept. WHY is everything blue? How color tones affect the mood of people? WHY Contrast? What does the image remembers you of before/after Color Correcting? What it is supposed to remember you of? Saturation? WHY? WHY, WHY, WHY! That is your job as a cinematographer, as a colorist, as a director, as an artist. Without writing something after BECAUSE, you are just a technician, and in my point of view, no better than the computer you are using. You can change your name to Mr. Magic Bullet.
Well since I'm not an expert, I really wouldn't take everything I said so seriously. The most important thing is educating yourself. Educate your mind, educate your eyes. When I'm done with those I will post how it feels, but seriously. Using a computer is the easy part.
The savior of the all, the master of all color correcting the ultimate car commercial tool: the limit effect.
Now here the fun begins. In those correcing systems we have a cute little thing called the limit effect and what's that? It's your second layer, your polishing (Consider the first color correcting the paint). Basically, a limit effect tool can make you choose only the portions of your image you want to affect (hue-wise, luminance-wise, etc). So I only want to change that yellow shoe for a red one. I color correct my image, get my trendy minority report feel and have this horrible blue books on the shelve. They could be green, what do you say? Ok, so I get my color corrector 3-way and apply a second layer of that on top of my messed image. Choose to limit it's effect only for that ridiculous blue tone and change it to whatever I want. See the degree of control we can have? (remember there are shortcust, the dessaturate highlights and desaturate lows tools are wonderful too!) And all that without rotoscoping the whole frame! Fast, swift, deadly. Want a pleasantville effect (All the image desaturated except for some color?) you can do it using the limit effect. And from there on. It's amazing what can one do to imagery with only te color correcting 3-way. If you know how to use it, and if you know what you want.
That's the most important thing. Knowing what you want, having a CONCEPT. I don't mean that as in advertising, I mean that in the full value of the word concept. WHY is everything blue? How color tones affect the mood of people? WHY Contrast? What does the image remembers you of before/after Color Correcting? What it is supposed to remember you of? Saturation? WHY? WHY, WHY, WHY! That is your job as a cinematographer, as a colorist, as a director, as an artist. Without writing something after BECAUSE, you are just a technician, and in my point of view, no better than the computer you are using. You can change your name to Mr. Magic Bullet.
Well since I'm not an expert, I really wouldn't take everything I said so seriously. The most important thing is educating yourself. Educate your mind, educate your eyes. When I'm done with those I will post how it feels, but seriously. Using a computer is the easy part.
taubkin
Veteran
Re: The look, in post or camera?
Just some finishing for the image of the old man...
I came up with this:
And with another round...
Subtle, yes, but I managed to take yor interest away from those ble books, didn't I? and the colors seem better resolved with a little less saturation, it seams more realistic in it's own color world... (Manage to decypher that! ;D )
Just some finishing for the image of the old man...
I came up with this:
And with another round...
Subtle, yes, but I managed to take yor interest away from those ble books, didn't I? and the colors seem better resolved with a little less saturation, it seams more realistic in it's own color world... (Manage to decypher that! ;D )
dmitriandsnow
Well-known member
Re: The look, in post or camera?
That nice old blue man is a nice man. Thank you for great tutorial now i will transfer all to Vegas 5. Does Vegas 5 come with color corrector 2?
That nice old blue man is a nice man. Thank you for great tutorial now i will transfer all to Vegas 5. Does Vegas 5 come with color corrector 2?
taubkin
Veteran
Re: The look, in post or camera?
[quote author=warmstepvision link=board=news;num=1096926124;start=0#13 date=10/05/04 at 18:39:31]That nice old blue man is a nice man. Thank you for great tutorial now i will transfer all to Vegas 5. Does Vegas 5 come with color corrector 2? [/quote]
It sure does.
It should be also called a 3-way, if I'm not mistaken. Download the FCP manual if you can find it though. It will cover important areas of monitoring as calibration, and the video scopes...
[quote author=warmstepvision link=board=news;num=1096926124;start=0#13 date=10/05/04 at 18:39:31]That nice old blue man is a nice man. Thank you for great tutorial now i will transfer all to Vegas 5. Does Vegas 5 come with color corrector 2? [/quote]
It sure does.
It should be also called a 3-way, if I'm not mistaken. Download the FCP manual if you can find it though. It will cover important areas of monitoring as calibration, and the video scopes...
Re: The look, in post or camera?
Taubkin you are the man.
That last image of the old man is just about perfect. You really know your stuff. Now all you have to do is to come to New York and give me a hand on my project.
. What do you say?
Anyway.
I'm farely new at all this. I'm learning as I go. Again thank you very much for your time. You rock!
Taubkin you are the man.
That last image of the old man is just about perfect. You really know your stuff. Now all you have to do is to come to New York and give me a hand on my project.
. What do you say?Anyway.
I'm farely new at all this. I'm learning as I go. Again thank you very much for your time. You rock!