The Line Between What the Client Wants And What Is Bad

T

tommygdawg

Well-known member
Hey all,

Another opinion question for everyone, and it may seem simple but to me it's a hard one to answer. Has anyone ever worked with a client who's asked for something in their video/film that you know is just objectively bad? Naturally, the first option is try and offer your own opinion on what to do to see if they'll change their minds. But, what if they don't? How do you handle a situation where they absolutely want to do something in the film you're making for them that you know will lower the quality of the overall product? Food for thought, let me know what you all think :)
 
This is a tough one.

I was recently in this situation. I was producing graphics for a client I've had for just over a year. I knew from the start that they wanted pretty mediocre stuff, with no thought or development. I was pretty broke at the start, so I took the client on, but NEVER put my name to the work.

I suggest three things to anyone with a client set in what they want, even if it looks ****:

1 - If you're working with a contract, make sure that it's written that you can cut together your own version (Directors Cut). At least that way, if the issue is in Post, you have something for your folio that you like.

2 - How are you with the money side of things? If you need the money, take it on and don't put your name on it. (I know some will disagree with this, but sometimes you can't pick and choose if you need the money)

3 - Prove to them you are right, and that they are wrong. I've done this is the past by using my own money and making mockups, test shoots etc.

4 - I've only ever used this once, and it worked, but it's all about throwing a little tantrum and calling their bluff. Suggest that you're going to back out of the project. If your client wants to work with you THAT much, they'll bow to your professional opinion. (Yes, they should, in theory, accept your professional opinion from the start, but no client is easy). If you pick this option, make sure that you SPECIFICALLY say that you're backing out due to the "lack of creative input/control", or something along those lines.
 
-Quick answer, I'm sure a lot of others will chime in.

You product that goes out into the world equals your "brand." It is how people know you, by your work.

But you have to balance "perfection" with the real world - your current skill level, deadlines, what the client can afford, and where it will be seen. You also need to eat. :)


I have this discussion repeatedly with my wife when I am talking photos for my son's music group. She says "They don't care, they just want a few pics for the web, take a few pics, etc."

I say: "I am a professional, my work represents me. I have to do this professionally! They might not care, but this is how I work." (By taking a full set of AC strobes and soft boxes to do a group shot and individual headshots, for example, instead on 1 flash on camera.)

The last time I did a group shot for their music camp, I had 5 people ask me about doing Senior Portraits, which usually run from $500 to $2,500 (depending on lots of factors.) So you are out there in ther world, representing your business whenever you work.


Basically you have 3 choices:

1) Say "Yes, and ....". Then do everything you can to deliver a product you are happy with. Shoot it his/her way, then also shoot variations. Show the client why your vision works better on the screen/monitor, not just in concept.


2) Find a compromise that you are happy with.


3) Remove your name from the project, either directly or by using a psuedonym, or


4) Found a 4: Bring someone in to do the poroject on a **positive** note. Maybe first as a collaborator - "Oh, I know this guy that would be great for that idea ..." and then transition ownership "Well, because XXX is doing so much work, he really desereves credit for the project. "


Stay positive. Don't get angry, don't be an "artiste" - "I refuse to have my name associated with this crap."

Solve the problem for the client positively, creatively, without criticism - one way or anothrer. Even if you have to eat a bit of extra cost (extra shots, sharinmg revenue, etc.)

Good luck!
Michael


(TimB and I cross posted.)
 
I have actually had this exactly issue with a client. There was constant asking for things that were just plain bad, like asking me to make jumpcuts and dissolve between them (in videos that didn't need it) because they looked good, use of stock photos that hadn't been paid for with the watermark still on them, ect. I pretty much would not do that stuff, and still kept my name out of the videos (and none of them are on my Vimeo page at all).

I did what I had to do to have money coming in, but it didn't last for very long. It was a very tiring process.
 
You are being hired to make their movie, not yours. Make suggestions, but in the end support THEIR vision. If you can't do that, don't take the job.
 
Theres a saying... "The client is always wrong" unfortunately I've run into this many many times, and it always seem to be from the same type of client. They have a lot of money, and want to micro manage eventhough they don't have a creative eye.

Example. I was working for a commercial house. Beautifully shot law commercial I was editing made it really stand out and look better than anything else on TV at the time. The client came in, and within a few hours had us re-edit everything, slap cheesy logos, titles, and bad hard cuts... by the end of it, it looked like a stupid run of the mill commercial that won't get noticed.

This happens all the time, and the bottom line is, its part of the gig. It's actually the most frustrating part of the entire biz, clients who dont know anything about image, but have the money so you can't do anything about it.
 
FilmDude said:
Example. I was working for a commercial house. Beautifully shot law commercial I was editing made it really stand out and look better than anything else on TV at the time. The client came in, and within a few hours had us re-edit everything, slap cheesy logos, titles, and bad hard cuts... by the end of it, it looked like a stupid run of the mill commercial that won't get noticed.
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Did you try to argue for your edit or did you just go along with it? Sometimes it can be tricky on picking the battles you want to fight.
 
When you're being hired to do a job, I think delivering what your client wants should be paramount.

You are the expert in this situation, so absolutely advise them on the best way to approach things, but in the end it's their decision - and you should be okay with that. When you're working on your 'own' projects, then following your vision trumps others input, but not on a gun-for-hire situation.
 
Good points everyone. It's just frustrating because the clients are hiring you (us, me, whoever) for your expertise, to do what you do best. And then they come in and micromanage everything and completely destroy it. I was doing interviews for a gig once and the guy kept saying "well let's just put people up in front of this white wall," and I fought with him tooth and nail until he finally agreed to let me shoot it how I wanted, and when he got the final product he was very impressed. Waddayaknow, I knew what I was doing! In many situations, though, it has not worked out this way.

A slightly related pet peeve I have is people who are not filmmakers in any way, trying to do what I do, and then asking me if it's good. A guy that I've worked for in the past is a marketing person. His job is to create marketing plans and programs for companies, and he's subcontracted me previously to create video packages for these companies. Recently, he decided to be frugal and create the video himself, and then emailed me and asked what I thought of the video (which wasn't good at all, it looked like a poorly made 80s TV commercial). Am I the only one who finds this frustrating? I emailed him back and kindly critiqued the video...but I guess since I didn't just give him applause he wasn't happy, because I never heard back.
 
Conversely...what do you do if the client has a great idea...and asks for (and expects) something better than "film maker" is capable of achieving?

Just asking!
 
Shooter said:
Conversely...what do you do if the client has a great idea...and asks for (and expects) something better than "film maker" is capable of achieving?

Just asking!
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That's a fantastic question, I've never actually been in that situation. No, not because I think I'm the most talented guy ever! But, because generally speaking clients don't know what they want, let alone something so sophisticated that is outside the realm of possibility. About the only time I can think of that even comes close (for me anyway) is when a client wanted extensive green screen work, which very quite capable of doing, but I told them the price would go up for that because it's a whole lot more work and preparation...and they decided not to do it. However, I'd like to think if a client asked for something I couldn't do, I'd be honest with them and tell them that. I don't think it would make me look bad at what I do because honesty is key, in my opinion.

--Edit--
Also in an ideal world, hopefully these kinds of things would be worked out in a meeting before taking the job so that no one is disappointed or surprised by the situation. IE, if I took a job where a client wanted ILM-quality visual effects in their product, I'd assume that would come up in a meeting before the job, and I would promptly tell them to hire ILM :)
 
unadog said:
3) Remove your name from the project, either directly or by using a psuedonym, or
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So the question this leads to - say you're not actually in control of credits. How do you go about removing your name from the project without tipping the client off to the fact that you think they made enough of a mistake for you to not want to be associated? This move seems like it could be found rather offensive. Or is it really not that important if they know why you're trying to not take credit?
 
I've given in and provided the client with what they wanted (I needed the money, and had my pride take a hike for a moment) - the biggest downsides to me are: a) I just spent a significant amount of time working on a project that I am embarrassed to even attach my name to, and only got a few shots for my reel, and b) once you give in to mediocrity you'll never dig yourself out of that hole. I have since done a few additional projects with this client and each one is basically just me giving in to their ridiculous, unprofessional, uncreative, tyrannical whims and desperate need to have a commercial with them in it being broadcasted. While I don't mind the extra cash I'm beyond the point of 'needing' extra work such as this just to pay bills - I'm going to cut ties with them after this next/last video. At the end of the day I have a certain level of professionalism and creativity that I want to adhere to, I don't need to do it, but I want to. I don't want to wake up one day when I'm forty and still making shitty videos on the side for some extra cash.
 
Shooter said:
Conversely...what do you do if the client has a great idea...and asks for (and expects) something better than "film maker" is capable of achieving?
Click to expand...

I guess I'll figure that out when it happens...wait, I do remember a moment now when the client had a great idea and it was better than I was capable of achieving.

Full body chroma key shoot with major motion graphics work and a 5 minute run-time.

Couldn't make that happen for $300.
 
Gary Huff said:
Did you try to argue for your edit or did you just go along with it? Sometimes it can be tricky on picking the battles you want to fight.
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I have a way of saying "are you sure you like that? I'd do it differently..." and the tone of my voice kind of gives it all away that... yeahhh that looks like crap to me. But in the end with my "boss" right there in the edit room with me and the client, theres no way to fight it. They were paying 10K plus for these things, and they like to control everything because its their money and they can do what they want with it.

tommygdawg said:
Good points everyone. It's just frustrating because the clients are hiring you (us, me, whoever) for your expertise, to do what you do best. And then they come in and micromanage everything and completely destroy it.
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This is what happens and I always argue this... Why the hell are you hiring me and paying me all this money, if you don't want me to do my craft???? What they see on my reel is MY work. Not the clients work. It will only look as good as my reel (the reason they hired me) if I DID the work. Not someone else.

So yeah its annoying, and mostly I just pull my name from the project. I seem to find a lot of these "rich first time directors" that like to spend lots of money, hire me and my expertise, only to then completely negate all my work and do what they want anyway. The end result is sub-par and I usually dont let it see the light of day with my name on it.

Sometimes unfortunately I have to be a Camera Op instead of a DP, eventhough I was hired as a DP, I'll usually ask that at the very least my title be Camera operator or just use a different name all together. I refuse to be forced to give my name on something that was NOT my work. I refuse to let that happen, and I will not let my name on something that I didn't control the look of. then I'm not the DP, I'm just a very over paid camera op, nothing more.
 
Once i was hired by big company to shot short docummentary how they make obstacles for bikepark. I took every equipment i had (tripod, steadycam, lights) and when i met my client he told me "You wouldnt need it! Do everything shaky, i love punk!" and i was like wtf.

He started to annoy me really hard so i told him "you paid me, i am the boss here, so be nice, do something useful and let me work as i want"...he agreed and everything was ok then :)
 
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