The lighting kit question

SirTed

SirTed

New member
Hi All!
I've read the forums a number of times, and while my subject is similar to many before me, I wanted to be a little more specific in my questioning. I apologise for the long question - but better you have all the details up-front and avoid having to drag it out of me!

I need your help to assemble a lighting kit for basic corporate video/documentary stuff - which demands lots of basic interviews and the like (I realise that there is lots of stuff on this here already - I HAVE read through it). I also have to travel, which means I need to be able to take a basic kit on the road with me (and through LOTS of airports). When you live in Australia, to get to anywhere means a LOT of travel, and you have to travel a long, looong way!

Most answers to "the lighting kit question" suggest building up a kit over a period of time. They also say hiring is a great way to get experience. I have already gained some slight degree of experience (having gone through film school and a few other basic technical courses) with lighting. So still an iggerant novice, but starting to learn! So far I have been hiring a Lowell-Rifa 500W for interviews and using all the practicals I can find in (typically) office environs!

I want to start investing more in lighting - so I'm wanting to buy a kit now, as
a) you need a versatile toolbox to create a variety of looks/images;
b) the hire companies don't want you to travel with their gear - and certainly don't make it easy for you; and
c) I'm often left to the mercies of whatever the hire companies have in stock (I often have to shoot at the last minute)

I also need to buy most of the gear in one shot (as its not my money that I'm throwing around!). My budget is AU$5,000 (which is around US$3,500).

So I figure I'm looking at a basic 3-4 light kit. The Lowell Kits look good and versatile for the money, but seemed flimsy when I played with anything other than the Rifa, (this seems to be the consensus on these forums). So I want something better quality and more reliable than Lowell (these things are travelling after all), but with similar versatility.

So these are the things I'm considering:
For a key light:
a Lowell Rifa light (500watt); or
a Kino Flo Diva 400; or
a Dedo DLH200S with Softbox
(why are these not talked about on the forums? are they new? crappy? under-powered? too expensive? Dedo have a good reputation over here... but for hard lensed lights - can they not make soft lights?)
This is the light most interesting to me - the marketing for this is that it has "twice the output of a fresnel in a soft box with a more even light (no hot spot)"
- if that's true, is a 400watt softbox enough of a key?
Since it can go either tungsten or daylight - is the daylight function any use? I must admit I have very little experience shooting outdoors - presumably if filming outdoors, it would be used as a fill light, but would it make much more of a difference than just bouncing the sun? The sunlight in Oz is INCREDIBLY bright. The entire country is burnt! Which makes it very difficult for a one or (if I'm lucky a) two-man crew to hang a sheet out to screen/diffuse the thermonuclear death we call the sun); The other benefit to having this daylight/tungsten switchable light is that i'd find it easier to use indoors with lots of sunlight through windows... What are your guys thoughts?

For the fill light, I figured I would either go for
a Kino flo 200
or
bouncing/reflecting a hard light, like a Dedolight or an Arri 300watt (we don't get Mole's in Australia), depending on budget.

then for a back/hair light, using another Dedolight, and maybe getting a cheap Tota light for boosting the ambient light.

Most responses to these type of questions tend to recommend getting big lights - 1000watt lights etc which has not seemed necessary for my needs - my first interview experience was with a Redhead kit - and even with some spun diffusion over the front, it still managed to cook my talent!!! (you can actually see the poor guy sweating and turn red - it was a ...learning experience!).

Why do people recommend bigger light kits? Is it simply to ensure you can also light bigger areas? Is there something I am missing? For Documentary type stuff with untrained talent, I want lights to be as unobtrusive as possible - and I certainly want to avoid cooking anybody!
A tota light with a speed ring and soft box seems very popular but is that not over-powering? I've been stuck filming in some very small offices - which means the subjects being very close to the lights!

I'll probably be stretching it to get this kit on the money I've got - (with case, grip gear, and decent stands thrown in) should I be thinking of something cheaper?

The other question I had was how do you bag these lights when travelling? I can't take shotbags with me inter-state - even if I could afford the excess baggage charges. What do you resourceful gaffers/DPs use to keep lights from getting knocked over? I've heard of a shot bag that you can fill with sand or water (!!!!) but the very idea of water near electricals sends my blood cold.


I hope you can give me some advice on this!
Thanks!
yours,
ted.
 
If you want to be able to do interviews outdoors in the sun, having a more powerful light with punch is highly desireable. This is outside your price range but getting 200/400/800 HMI Par like the k5600 or brons are ideal. They are powerful, compact, and don't draw too much power. You can send them through diffusion and still get alot of light when used as a fill.

I think people suggest bigger lights because it's unbelievable how quickly the light from smaller kits can get sucked up. Depending on the light levels in the interview location, what the color of the background is, the size of the space, the number of interview subjects. And not to mention gels. Portable fresnel light kits don't give alot of power but are typically inexpensive.

The diva 400 is a great light. It uses compact flourescent tubes that are interchangeable in color temperature and put out as much light as a 4' 4 bank but small and portable in size. They make a good choice as part of a kit in my opinion and if you get the kit, it includes a flozier diffusion if you need to soften it up (you use a lot of light though). The compact size is a bit of drawback in the sense that the source is harder due to it's compactness when compared to a 4'bank. It may be somewhat unflattering when too close. But you can always use some diffusion gel to help.

An 200/400 HMI + diva 400 + 300/150's makes a great interview kit with alot of flexibility and is more portable than say an Arri Softbank kit. But you gotta pay for that flexibility.
 
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thanks!

thanks!

Thanks for your advice, opcode! Both ultra-fast and well-reasoned!
I don't know what a "brons" is, but if its outside my price range, I don't even want to know!
;)

For filming outdoors in the sun, which I do only rarely - I tend to use just a reflector to fill in the sunlight (and/or pray for clouds). With the quick outdoors interviews that I do do, struggling to set up a screen to diffuse the sunlight doesn't really seem worthwhile - and from what you say I'd need a hugely powerful lighting kit to make an impact outside.

So scratch that idea! I guess I need to restate my question then - I'm mainly interested in getting a lighting kit that I can travel with and use indoors (being able to use the kit outside is really an added bonus - not the principal use for these lights)

I understand your argument for losing light through diffusion and gels - it makes sense. Does this mean you think the 200watt (which they claim would be the equivalent of a 400w softboxed fresnel) Dedo softbox would be too weak as a key?

The only problem with getting a more powerful dedolight softbox is that their larger softboxes don't have interchangeable globes... it's either daylight or tungsten.

Another point - does that mean a softbox "key" light should have a smaller, (and therefore harder) area, and a softbox "fill" light demands a bigger surface area (like an octodome)?

AAAAh! There just seems to be continually more questions than answers!

Anyway, thanks for your help! I really appreciate your last line - you really do have to pay for flexibility - and the poor man pays twice. That's why I'm agonising over getting this kit right - so that it will last a long time.
 
Here are the Bron HMI Pars that I mentioned, they are cool because their waterproof! http://www.bron-kobold-usa.com/productpage800-2005.html

And here are the k5600 Joker bug kits http://www.k5600.com/Kits/index.html

Anytime you throw diffussion like 216 over a fresnel, it loses ALOT of light. I think a 200W fresnel through a softbox is honestly, not alot of light. And, light that is diffused falls off exponentially faster than direct light. This means that you either need more power of move the light source closer. Now, if you can put it a foot or two away from the face and shoot a tight closeup, you may be fine. But as you back up a softsource to frame mediums, the light falls off quickly. I use a 1k arri through a softbox all the time and that's not enough in certain situations.

The issues you will run into are for example, indoor interviews near a window during the afternoon. Somehow you need to balance the contrast and you really do need some stronger lights to get an acceptable expsosure where things aren't blown out.

The nice thing with the compact hmi par's is that you can use them direct or diffused and still have alot of punch. Research some 200W HMI Pars.

I also need to say that I don't have any experience with the Dedo lights so I can't speak for their efficacy. I'm not trying to steer you away from them, I just want to point out that, 200W is not alot of light for a key more often than not.

Regarding the key light issue, their is no hard and fast rule. I mean, it's not written in stone that the key light has to be harder than the fill at all. In fact, when lighting women, you generally use softer lights and soft fill while lighting them flatter. It's just more pleasing visually to light them this way generally. While for male subjects, you may want to sidelight them more with higher key to fill ratios and use a harder light.

Also, if you have strong enough softbox keylight, you may not need a second diffuse fill light. A reflector or bounce card can often be placed opposite and help reflect the soft key back into the shadow side and under the chin. The diva 400 will give you that ability to have a strong diffuse light (though harder than a softbox) but allow you to reflect the spill back into the shadow using bounce. This could very well take care of your key and fill for many situations. Along with some 150 or 300 as rim, hair, accents, you can get some very nice setups.

But do take a look at the 200w or 400W HMI pars, if anything just for future reference. They are excellent travel lights for interviews and for traveling and certainly are exclusive to outdoor use.

And one more note to take under consideration. The camera you use makes a difference to how much light you need. Fast, low light cameras like the SDX-900 will give you significantly better images than some other cameras. Some cameras require alot of light to give clean images.
 
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Okay, people may laugh at my suggestion for a light kit, as it's not a huge name like Arri, Mole, or even Lowell, but if you want an INSANE value on lights, and still have a professional look in front of clients, check out this Dynaphos kit from Amvona: http://www.amvona.com/v7/shop/?page=shop/flypage&view=1&product_id=2445

Through their website, this k3200 Tungsten light kit is over $1,400 ... when you consider the quality of the light stands, soft box, all accessories, and travel case, that in itself is still a pretty good value. They also send you 8-1,000w bulbs and 4-500w, which are VERY well protected within the case.

Anyway, if you purchase this through E-Bay, you should very easily be able to get the same kit for $500 or less. I've personally bought one through E-Bay (same exact kit as listed above), and won the auction for $426 + $55 in shipping. When I rec'd it, I was BLOWN AWAY at the quality of the kit ... there's nothing about it that I've not been impressed with. Sure, it's not Mole, Arri, or Lowell, but 99% of the population won't know the difference when looking at the kit themselves, and it doesn't matter the brand for the actual production ... just on the LOOK that you can deliver on camera. If you want to color correct the warmer k3200 color, just get some large blue gels.

I honestly believe, you can't go wrong with this kit. It is fairly heavy, however, because of everything that's in there, so you'll want to check to see what the final weight is of the kit with all lights & accessories, and see if you can still travel on airliners with it. For small kits & travel ease, Lowell is a smart choice for that, as they seem to specialize in SMALL.

I had 235 Studios (formally known as waltind) check out the light kit, and he too was extremely surprised at the value & quality that came out of that kit.
 
Hey Guys!
Thanks for both replying!
First up - thanks for those links, Opcode! I had a look and they definitely look cool...

Unfortunately, given my location, its unlikely I'll ever see those lights in action - the Australian film lighting market is so ridiculously small that pretty much everything has to be ordered in - VERY few lights are kept in stock by the rental/sale outlets - and most of the stuff we see is by a very few popular brand names like lowell, arri, dedo, etc - so I'm unlikely to ever get to play with something like that.

Added to that they're outside my budget and that puts them firmly out of reach - I wouldn't want to buy a light that I hadn't seen and had a play around with - let alone go back and fight to scrape up more cash for an unknown quantity...
For the same reason, I thank you for the suggestion, Envision, I don't think I'll be going for the dynaphos kit you mention. I'm leary of buying anything sight-unseen, and don't want to gamble with the money I have. I'm investing a reasonable stack of money on these lights so that they will last me a long time and will give me reliable results - I agree with you that the brand is immaterial in respect to the quality of your images - but as to the quality of the lights and their reliability, sturdiness, and manufacturer support, I think I'd rather go with a brand name. The kit does seem impressive, though - I hope it works out for you! (btw - does their "innovative cooling design" mean a fan? Will that interfere with sound recording? It sounds like the kit may actually be intended as a continuous light kit for studio still-photography rather than film/videography - but what the hell - it's the results that matter, right?).

I agree with your point on cameras, too, opcode - I haven't used the SDX-900 - my experience has been limited to miniDV and the occasional 16mm short film - but there is a big difference in the level of light needed for different cameras - unfortunately I don't know as yet what camera I'll be using! We're actually upgrading the camera kit, too (we're going the whole hog!) - we're trying to decide between the HVX-202 (the dream camera but with workflow ...issues And recording costs) and the Sony HVR-Z1P (the very solid doco-cam with crappy recording format).

You've convinced me the 200watt softbox isn't very practical... I suppose if I got an 800watt/1000watt softbox I could always lamp it down for close quarter shooting...

From what you've been saying, though, my priority should be getting the diva 400 first, and supplementing that with some smaller, 300watt - 150watt hard fresnel lights for back/rim lights and THEN think about getting a decent-sized softbox?

Thanks again for your comments, guys!
 
Well SirTed, I'd like to think that I completely research my purchases before spending money, especially since I don't have an endless supply of cash. That said, I've waited a solid year or more before finally buying lights, and I simply could not find a better value than the kit I have above. The light stands are amazing, as well is the case ... I honestly can't compare it to Arri or the other top name brands, as I've not worked with them ... but Ryan Walters (235 Studios) has, and he was blown away with the quality & all that came for the price.

For such a low price, how can you go wrong? Other than the weight factor, which as you stated they're more for studio as they are NOT a really low weight light kit that you can just throw over your shoulder like you might a Lowell DV Light Kit ... but you'll also spend about 60-75% less money ... so you'll just have to measure your pros & cons yourself.

I accidentally won an auction (didn't realize what lights I was bidding on) previously, and then offered up the win to anyone here on DVXuser that was interested. The person that took them off my hands was also amazed at the quality & value. Not, "Geez, these are good for the price", but "Geez, these are just flat out great lights!".

But, hey, it's your cash, and I'll respect if you want to go with the more popular name brands.

Oh, and the cooling units are simply the design of the casing, how it disperses the heat, as well as the cross ventilation flaps that can be opened & closed in the softboxes. No fans or noise, other than the typical LOW hum you'll hear from high powered bulbs.
 
Arri softbank IV kit... Make some money, add the 400 HMI joker kit.
 
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Envision said:
Okay, people may laugh at my suggestion for a light kit, as it's not a huge name like Arri, Mole, or even Lowell, but if you want an INSANE value on lights, and still have a professional look in front of clients, check out this Dynaphos kit from Amvona: http://www.amvona.com/v7/shop/?page=shop/flypage&view=1&product_id=2445

Through their website, this k3200 Tungsten light kit is over $1,400 ... when you consider the quality of the light stands, soft box, all accessories, and travel case, that in itself is still a pretty good value. They also send you 8-1,000w bulbs and 4-500w, which are VERY well protected within the case.

Anyway, if you purchase this through E-Bay, you should very easily be able to get the same kit for $500 or less. I've personally bought one through E-Bay (same exact kit as listed above), and won the auction for $426 + $55 in shipping. When I rec'd it, I was BLOWN AWAY at the quality of the kit ... there's nothing about it that I've not been impressed with. Sure, it's not Mole, Arri, or Lowell, but 99% of the population won't know the difference when looking at the kit themselves, and it doesn't matter the brand for the actual production ... just on the LOOK that you can deliver on camera. If you want to color correct the warmer k3200 color, just get some large blue gels.

I honestly believe, you can't go wrong with this kit. It is fairly heavy, however, because of everything that's in there, so you'll want to check to see what the final weight is of the kit with all lights & accessories, and see if you can still travel on airliners with it. For small kits & travel ease, Lowell is a smart choice for that, as they seem to specialize in SMALL.

I had 235 Studios (formally known as waltind) check out the light kit, and he too was extremely surprised at the value & quality that came out of that kit.
Click to expand...
I like the kit above. I'd love to get one of those as a starting kit. Would it suffice? Is that kit perfect for shooting indoor scenes where people are talking or lighting an a whole room, or is it mostly for interviews? What type of lighting situtations does that kit work in?
 
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I've found that it's IDEAL for indoor/studio work, but with the lack of barndoors, and do to the type/size of bulbs (they're LONG, not recessed), there are better options for outdoors ... though they could still do the trick with some proper knowledge & work arounds.

Indoor, they could do a small interview nicely, or light an entire room, as you'd have up to 3,000 watts of light pooring out.
 
Envision said:
I've found that it's IDEAL for indoor/studio work, but with the lack of barndoors, and do to the type/size of bulbs (they're LONG, not recessed), there are better options for outdoors ... though they could still do the trick with some proper knowledge & work arounds.

Indoor, they could do a small interview nicely, or light an entire room, as you'd have up to 3,000 watts of light pooring out.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Outside I can use my halogen flood lights or some alternate, but knowing that I could use these and adapt them to most indoor scenes makes me happy. I was wondering what I should get for good introductory indoor lighting and this sounds like it could be my best bet for starting out.

Thanks!
 
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