The Last Airbender - M. Night's latest

[Nektonic]

Perhaps that is sometimes the case. However in both my work dealing with corporate america, as well as advocacy work in school systems, I have found that there is some truth to the idea that the more people screw up, the more likely they are to get promoted. They may not get to the top rung, but they get pretty high. :undecided

Really, because I'm sure I could gum up the works at some big company pretty good. I'd gladly take a nice fat check if all I gotta do is wreak some havok. :badputer:

Seriously though, do you have any theories as to why this kind of thing happens? I'm not disagreeing with you, just curious about how this can happen or why bosses would let it happen. Actually, I've seen it happen in a limited capacity. From what I've seen, its usually the nepotism/buddy angle where a person's friend gets work over the more qualified non-friend. Of course, if the buddy is as or more qualified, then fine, no problems there.

 

[Nathyn]

Seriously though, do you have any theories as to why this kind of thing happens? I'm not disagreeing with you, just curious about how this can happen or why bosses would let it happen. Actually, I've seen it happen in a limited capacity. From what I've seen, its usually the nepotism/buddy angle where a person's friend gets work over the more qualified non-friend. Of course, if the buddy is as or more qualified, then fine, no problems there.

It has to do with who people know and what other quality or abilities they have. People get promoted for many reasons, from sleeping with the boss to simply being a friend of the right person. Or even the boss looking for specific qualities.

-Nate

 

[Nektonic]

Also there a lack of ethnic roles in Sci-Fi, and a deep seeded racism in the sci-community so when people see great sci-fi based on ethnics and the next you know Joe Whiteman is in the role your mouth drops.

I think that is going away though. Bear in mind that when I refer to sci-fi community, I mean books, comics, videogames, TV, foreign sci-fi cinema, anime, and not just mainstream films.

Of course, for sci-fi writers and sometimes filmmakers, its more a problem of being looked down on and held in a sort of cultural stasis because the literary or mainstream world looks down on sci-fi and its fans as a bunch of boob and raygun obsessed dweebs who never have sex. At least, that's what people thought of sci-fi fans back in the day, and to some extent that stigma still lingers to this day.

Also, it can go both ways. Robert Neville in I AM LEGEND was originally a white dude, but was recently played by Will Smith. Not that I have a problem with that at all (I own this film, its a keeper and the best adaptation of this story to date).

 

[Nathyn]

I think that is going away though. Bear in mind that when I refer to sci-fi community, I mean books, comics, videogames, TV, foreign sci-fi cinema, anime, and not just mainstream films.

And these are the same people I'm referring. Dr. Who just got his first black assistant a few years ago. People lost their minds. And the UK is actually a lot nicer about this kind of thing. But part of it is you don't need to say "The first black..." anything anymore. We can see the color of the actor playing the role, know what I mean. And don't let me get on comics. They try hard but miss the obvious and sometimes do in your face racist things (Marvel made a comicbook about black superheroes and made the book black and white...aside from their old Conan and Manga comics, Marvel rarely if ever, makes black and white comics).

Of course, for sci-fi writers and sometimes filmmakers, its more a problem of being looked down on and held in a sort of cultural stasis because the literary or mainstream world looks down on sci-fi and its fans as a bunch of boob and raygun obsessed dweebs who never have sex. At least, that's what people thought of sci-fi fans back in the day, and to some extent that stigma still lingers to this day.

Not at all. Girls readily come to comic conventions readily, people of all ages flock to sci-fi films and sci-fi is all the rage. Super heroes, Vampires and Harry Potter, LOL. Sci-Fi is a billion dollar industry that has become mainstream. But you can push black Sci-fi, try pushing Christian Sci-Fi, that'll get you comments. People will love or hate it with almost very little in between. Most love it, but people who hate it are very vocal.

Also, it can go both ways. Robert Neville in I AM LEGEND was originally a white dude, but was recently played by Will Smith. Not that I have a problem with that at all (I own this film, its a keeper and the best adaptation of this story to date).

But as mentioned before I have a problem with this too. "I DON'T WANT TO SEE BLACK MEN PLAY WHITE CHARACTERS, I want to see MORE GOOD BLACK CHARACTERS!" He shouts to the world. LOL

Oh, yeah, Will Smith = James West? :undecided

LOL and you see how well that worked out.

-Nate

 

[Nektonic]

Not at all. Girl come to comic conventions readily, people of all ages flock to sci-fi films and sci-fi is all the rage. Super heroes, Vampires and Harry Potter, LOL. Sci-Fi is a billion dollar industry that has become mainstream.

To a certain extent, but there is a lot of people who will say they like sci-fi/fantasy and then shrug off some of the great but lesser known works of the genre, especially if it is a challenging one. That's why something like The Matrix, Avatar, or Daybreakers can seem so fresh and original to the majority of the audience, as they are not aware of all the similar stories that were written before (note to Hollywood: the vault is open, steal away now while you have the chance). The funny thing is that Hollywood sci-fi films are usually about 20-30 years behind some of the stuff being written about in sci-fi literature.

Also, science fiction literature is currently not in good shape. Most of the authors are starting to make an exodus to high fantasy or urban fantasy (Twilight), or even more mainstream types of storytelling and young adult fiction. Even a lot of writers that are still primarily considered sci-fi authors are writing science fiction that is tinged with very mainstream elements. I can't say I blame them either, as we all gotta earn some bread. I'm gonna miss my big old wild and crazy 500-700 page space operas when this transition is over with.

So maybe sci-fi comics and films are on the rise, and especially videogames too. As someone whose primary genre of concern is science fiction, I'll tell you that if the videogame industry had a viable and sensible method of bringing in and shepherding new writers the way the comics, film, or literary industries do from time to time, then I'd be gunning to write games over any other form because that is were science fiction stories are the primary genre that games base their narratives and worlds in. With sci-fi film you have to pretty much adapt an already established brand or series.

 

[Jawa Ex Machina]

But as mentioned before I have a problem with this too. "I DON'T WANT TO SEE BLACK MEN PLAY WHITE CHARACTERS, I want to see MORE GOOD BLACK CHARACTERS!" He shouts to the world.

Wait, wait... I'm not really getting this.

This may sound like a stupid question, but how do you define a "good, black character" here?

Is it a character that's black, well written, and also has a relation to whatever that means socially (as in the part of town he's from for instance)?

Or is it a well written character in a story where his background or skin color is really a non issue, but he just happens to be played by a black actor (like Night of the Living Dead)?

I'm just asking because over here our rasism problems work diffently somewhat than in the US.

 

[Batutta]

I think you have an axe to grind Nathyn, and there's nothing wrong with that, I'm sure it's what keeps you motivated. But I think sometimes it sounds like you're out to prove a thesis that Hollywood and the sci-fi community is racist by selectively using facts that back up your argument without looking at the full picture. Hollywood studios only feel comfortable doing what's worked in the past. Not many black women are in action roles because not many films with black women in leading action roles have made money. That doesn't mean they won't. Just that the suits won't believe they will until proven otherwise. They weren't real comfortable with black men in lead action roles until Beverly Hills Cop made tons of money.

 

[Jim Brennan]

I agree with much of your sentiment of frustration Nathyn. It is historically well founded. But your solution is a bit arbitrary and selective. You are choosing where that line should be drawn. My wife is Mexican and I have seen her get into heated debates about what it means to be "hispanic" Do you suggest casting a dark-skinned Cuban to play an African American Character? Or would a Puerto Rican actor be appropriate to play a Spanish king? Many would be fine with that. Others would not. Within the broadest definitions of race there are factions that choose to either subdivide or remove themselves from that definition.

My daughter, by legal definition is Hispanic (says so on her birth certificate..it seems anyone born when one parent is non-white, gets classified according to the other race) But she looks about as Mexican as Queen Elizabeth. Would she be a better choice (if skill sets are equal) to be cast as the Spanish romantic lead opposite Zorro as Welsh actress Catherine Zeta Jones just because she is of Hispanic descent?

Again, I understand the roots of your frustration, and I remember hearing about The Last Airbender coming out, and hoping the suits had the balls to cast non-white actors. But I think you either have to look at this as a complex and sticky problem with no simple solutions, or a simple problem of casting whoever will put more asses in the seats (even if that is just a misconception on the part of the decision makers)

 

[Nathyn]

Wait, wait... I'm not really getting this.

This may sound like a stupid question, but how do you define a "good, black character" here?

Is it a character that's black, well written, and also has a relation to whatever that means socially (as in the part of town he's from for instance)?

You hit the nail on the head when you said it's a character that's black, well written, and also has a relation to whatever that means socially (as in the part of town he's from for instance). He doesn't even need to come from the ghetto or whatever. How about a black child being sent from space and growing up to be a Superman. I don't want to see a black man playing Superman, but a black character every bit as good and pure hearted as Superman. And when that character gets big and someone wants to make a movie about him, then that guy should be played by a black actor. You got it!

I think you have an axe to grind Nathyn, and there's nothing wrong with that, I'm sure it's what keeps you motivated. But I think sometimes it sounds like you're out to prove a thesis that Hollywood and the sci-fi community is racist by selectively using facts that back up your argument without looking at the full picture. Hollywood studios only feel comfortable doing what's worked in the past. Not many black women are in action roles because not many films with black women in leading action roles have made money.

That's a great example you've been told a tale and you believe it. How many films with black women in lead action roles do you know of. The ones from the blacksploitation era. You do know these films saved Hollywood right. Coffy is still loved to this day by many people black and white. Hollywood is telling white people they won't go see black/ethnic leads, white people are telling Hollywood they'll see whatever they like. Racism isn't from bottom up, it's not the guy next door. It's from top down, it's the guys at the top promoting racism via programming. It's a discussion I'd love to talk with people about because it's hard to write about. And I've talked about the white God-man in sci-fi in other post and pointed out it's the same being as Nietzsche's Uberman (the Übermensch) which we all know was co-opted by Hitler. In comics Hitler's greatest foe was Captain America, an American Übermensch. Don't get me wrong, Capt is one of my favorites, but let's go beneath what's on the surface. Modern Capt. stories include a black Captain America who was experimented on before Steve Rogers. This character died a few years ago. There's a great scene where all the black superheroes were honoring him at his funeral and the white characters where like "Who is this guy?" That's so true to life. And by the way Batutta, you can convict with enough circumstantial evidence.

That doesn't mean they won't. Just that the suits won't believe they will until proven otherwise. They weren't real comfortable with black men in lead action roles until Beverly Hills Cop made tons of money.

But it has been proven. Black sales! Look at hip-hop. The belief was that white music (or white bands) had a lock on music. Suddenly the barcode is introduced and the "suits" found out what was really selling, it wasn't REM it was NWA. (That's a true story by the way). Also they control what sales. With proper promotion I believe Wanted starring Halle Berry would've been just as big as "Wanted" starring Angelina Jolie.

I agree with much of your sentiment of frustration Nathyn. It is historically well founded. But your solution is a bit arbitrary and selective. You are choosing where that line should be drawn. My wife is Mexican and I have seen her get into heated debates about what it means to be "hispanic" Do you suggest casting a dark-skinned Cuban to play an African American Character? Or would a Puerto Rican actor be appropriate to play a Spanish king? Many would be fine with that. Others would not. Within the broadest definitions of race there are factions that choose to either subdivide or remove themselves from that definition.

Jim it's not about that. Simply this Angelina Jolie isn't black. Your wife is Mexican, if she were an actress and trying for a Mexican action hero role, but Angelina Jolie got the part she would be angery and you would be too, plain and simple. A Mexican didn't get it, not even a Hispanic, but a white woman who could have almost any role, but she had to play the Mexican action/superhero. If it happened to her, you'd go on the warpath, believe me. Suppose it's a movie about Mexican woman fighting a Mexican. Angelina Jolie plays the Mexican hero, all the badguys are Latino and Hispanic. Ask your wife how she'd feel about that.

-Nate

 

[Sad Max]

And I've talked about the white God-man in sci-fi in other post and pointed out it's the same being as Nietzsche's Uberman (the Übermensch) which we all know was co-opted by Hitler

Simply because Nietzsche and his philosophy are so routinely maligned-by-association with Nazism, I would like to point out that neither the man nor the work can be held responsible for the fact that the Nazis chose to pick-and-choose and bowdlerize it the way that they did. Tainting something by associating it with Nietzsche, and tainting Nietzsche by association with Hitler is fundamentally unsound.

 

[Nektonic]

Simply because Nietzsche and his philosophy are so routinely maligned-by-association with Nazism, I would like to point out that neither the man nor the work can be held responsible for the fact that the Nazis chose to pick-and-choose and bowdlerize it the way that they did. Tainting something by associating it with Nietzsche, and tainting Nietzsche by association with Hitler is fundamentally unsound.

Same thing with the Swastika, which originated in asian cultures.

At least the "Hitler mustache" will probably never come back as a fashion statement. That one was pretty much dead on arrival.

 

[Nathyn]

Tainting something by associating it with Nietzsche, and tainting Nietzsche by association with Hitler is fundamentally unsound.

The point I was making had nothing to do with Nietzsche, hence I said was "Co opted" by Hitler. Go back and read it again please. My point was see how the idea is the same, our American hero is basically the same as Hitler's. I just like to point out the irony. I still like Capt, but he's an American Uberman all the way down to the blond hair and blue eyes.

-Nate

 

[Batutta]

That's a great example you've been told a tale and you believe it. How many films with black women in lead action roles do you know of. The ones from the blacksploitation era. You do know these films saved Hollywood right. Coffy is still loved to this day by many people black and white. Hollywood is telling white people they won't go see black/ethnic leads, white people are telling Hollywood they'll see whatever they like. Racism isn't from bottom up, it's not the guy next door. It's from top down, it's the guys at the top promoting racism via programming. It's a discussion I'd love to talk with people about because it's hard to write about. And I've talked about the white God-man in sci-fi in other post and pointed out it's the same being as Nietzsche's Uberman (the Übermensch) which we all know was co-opted by Hitler. In comics Hitler's greatest foe was Captain America, an American Übermensch. Don't get me wrong, Capt is one of my favorites, but let's go beneath what's on the surface. Modern Capt. stories include a black Captain America who was experimented on before Steve Rogers. This character died a few years ago. There's a great scene where all the black superheroes were honoring him at his funeral and the white characters where like "Who is this guy?" That's so true to life. And by the way Batutta, you can convict with enough circumstantial evidence.

But it has been proven. Black sales! Look at hip-hop. The belief was that white music (or white bands) had a lock on music. Suddenly the barcode is introduced and the "suits" found out what was really selling, it wasn't REM it was NWA. (That's a true story by the way). Also they control what sales. With proper promotion I believe Wanted starring Halle Berry would've been just as big as "Wanted" starring Angelina Jolie.

-Nate

As I said, you got an axe to grind man. I believe no story. The blaxploitation era was 40 years ago, ancient history as far as modern Hollywood is concerned and not at all relevant to their current thinking. The majority of Hollywood's decision making is economic. It's an industry full of people looking to cover their asses so they take zero chances on anything. As budgets get bigger they take even fewer. They could take chances on blaxploitation fare because budgets were a hundred times smaller back then, even for top fare...I want to reiterate, I'm not defending them. I'm just explaining them, and saying it's unfair to tar them with a racist label when their decisions are more pragmatic and not based on hate. As for Captain America, well yeah if you're taking about anything made 50-60 years ago of course you'll find racism because the world was a much more racist place. I'm not going to deny there's been a long history of racism, but things have improved a lot in the last 20-30 years to the point where its not a given that just because something seems racist, means that it is racist.

 

[Sad Max]

At least the "Hitler mustache" will probably never come back as a fashion statement. That one was pretty much dead on arrival.

Something interesting that I have noticed in a lot of European Heavy Metal novellas and in The Fifth Element (also a European product kind of inspired by Heavy Metal) is the use of a Hitler-esque look for the villians.

18 pages to the fulfillment of Godwin's Law.

And I've talked about the white God-man in sci-fi in other post and pointed out it's the same being as Nietzsche's Uberman (the Übermensch) which we all know was co-opted by Hitler

Reading it again it still looks like a rhetorical effort to associate the overman and Nietzsche (and therefore the 'white God-man' and presumably stories featuring him) with Nazism.

If I'm reading it wrong I'm certainly open to correction on how it was meant to be interpreted.

 

[Nathyn]

I want to reiterate, I'm not defending them. I'm just explaining them, and saying it's unfair to tar them with a racist label when their decisions are more pragmatic and not based on hate. As for Captain America, well yeah if you're taking about anything made 50-60 years ago of course you'll find racism because the world was a much more racist place. I'm not going to deny there's been a long history of racism, but things have improved a lot in the last 20-30 years to the point where its not a given that just because something seems racist, means that it is racist.

And I understand you're not defending them, I'm just not buying the "it's all about money line". They do too much dumb stuff if they look at the same "proven" things you're talking about. Catwoman is the best example. A very easy movie to write, but they totally removed it from the comic world. All they had to do was pick up a Catwoman comic. They made up a totally new Catwoman. You don't even want me to start with the racism at Warner Bros. Remember their network started with all black shows, now look at the CW all white shows about white rich girls and pretty boys with black 30 minute sitcoms peppered in here and there. And if you think things have improved The Cosby era is over and point to me one black drama on regular television, just one. (Not the Jada Pinkett Smith show that's JUST coming out). Believe it or now we had a black drama called "Julia" in 1968 and it did very well. It was taken off the air but still had good ratings.

-Nate

 

[Nektonic]

Something interesting that I have noticed in a lot of European Heavy Metal novellas and in The Fifth Element (also a European product kind of inspired by Heavy Metal) is the use of a Hitler-esque look for the villians.

Have you played Bionic Commando? It doesn't go much Fuhrer than that, as the end boss looks pretty much exactly like Hitler? Bad joke, but I couldn't resist.

18 pages to the fulfillment of Godwin's Law.

Wow. Did we even get to the Hitler point in the Avatar or AF-100 threads? Those were epic threads.

 

[Nathyn]

Reading it again it still looks like a rhetorical effort to link the overman and Nietzsche (and therefore the 'white God-man' and presumably stories featuring him) with Nazism.

I was making a Nazi connection but just to show the irony. Even the good guys fall into the Uberman trap, meaning the idea of whiteness being equated with being great or powerful. Will Smith could indeed be a black Uberman, but is there such a thing? LOL, Hitler even makes an appearance in my works, but he's trumped by a black Uberman.

-Nate

 

[Jim Brennan]

Jim it's not about that. Simply this Angelina Jolie isn't black. Your wife is Mexican, if she were an actress and trying for a Mexican action hero role, but Angelina Jolie got the part she would be angery and you would be too, plain and simple. A Mexican didn't get it, not even a Hispanic, but a white woman who could have almost any role, but she had to play the Mexican action/superhero. If it happened to her, you'd go on the warpath, believe me. Suppose it's a movie about Mexican woman fighting a Mexican. Angelina Jolie plays the Mexican hero, all the badguys are Latino and Hispanic. Ask your wife how she'd feel about that.

-Nate

Yes I probably would. And I know guys who were pissed that Mark Wahlberg was cast as Vince Papale. Do they have a gripe? If you choose to draw a line at skin color, why can't they draw a line even further at cultural identity? My point is not whether casting is unfair or sensitive, but rather that your definition of where the differentiation is will not be the same as someone else. There are huge differences in culture between a Hispanic born in Detroit compared to one born in Colombia. Huge differences between a Black man born in LA compared to a Black man born in Nigeria. Yet you seem stuck on drawing the line according to skin color or last name.

I would love to see more ethnic diversity in Hollywood casting.

 

[Sad Max]

Nathyn, I promise you that you are seriously underestimating the degree of ego, idiosyncrasy, pot-stirring, competition, infighting and plain old testing-the-wind that characterize major studio production projects.

Yes, the dumb careless random destructive pissing-in-the-beer crap that you describe as "too much" is not "too much;" it's just right.

You don't need racism, to get Catwoman. You just need arrogance and ego and off you go.

You don't need racism for the WB slate, either. They didn't get the ratings and the dollars they wanted. Probably because they didn't understand their market too well, likely because they didn't really do much serious or responsible research. They didn't get the return they hoped for, gave up, and moved their programming goals elsewhere.

 

[Batutta]

And I understand you're not defending them, I'm just not buying the "it's all about money line". They do too much dumb stuff if they look at the same "proven" things you're talking about. Catwoman is the best example. A very easy movie to write, but they totally removed it from the comic world. All they had to do was pick up a Catwoman comic. They made up a totally new Catwoman. You don't even want me to start with the racism at Warner Bros. Remember their network started with all black shows, now look at the CW all white shows about white rich girls and pretty boys with black 30 minute sitcoms peppered in here and there.

-Nate

But I just think you should refrain from throwing around the racist label so profusely. A circumstance may be unfair and create an inequality, but when you say "racist" in the eyes of most people it sounds like you're saying, "you hate black people". It's a very loaded term and not an accurate way to explain a lot of situations. And it's also dangerous to apply it to situations where you don't have all the facts. What Mel Gibson was caught on tape saying today, now THAT is racist. What Warner Bros. and the makers of Wanted or the Last Airbender did is maybe stupid, and culturally insensitive, but I doubt it came from a place of racial hatred.