The IndiMatte...Resistance is futile

Does it bother anyone that these pics, the brevis matte box and the Indian one are shameless steals of the Vocas patent/design? Correct me if I'm wrong. But it looks like Vocas did all the work, design and made a classic matte box only to have it lifted and cheaply reproduced. If these are all Indian made knock offs - watch out for piss poor quality. Vocas is a work of art. I'd hate to see a company like that go under because they were savaged by the patent pirates.
 
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I just looked at teh Vocas website and their mattebox is always 2 fixed and 1 rotatingstage. is that also true for the Brevis and the Indian one. Are they really just rip-offs? that's very sad.
 
My "indian ripp of" works great.
And it is not cheap when you know that they have it made for under $20 but sale it for allmost $280. $40 would be cheap.

Vocas did not loose a cent because I would never pay such a insane price for such a cheap and simple device as a mattebox - so they never would get my money anyways.

Only a complete idiot pays 75 euros for those Arri stainless rails when he can get the same thing in the next hardware store for 15 euros.

I did that, and my 15 euro rails work as smooth as the Arri rails I rented a while ago.

You only pay for the sticker and because it is film related (uuuuuh Hollywood!)

If that mattebox would be for a sewing machine or a toy it would be $15.

A friend got a very large remote controll 57 Chevy for x-mas.
Motor, engine sound, remote, working air ride andwhatnot.
A zillion more parts and motors and electronics and stuff. But it comes for about the same price as the india mattebox.

So yes it is a ripp off, but not such a big ripp off as all the "brand" equipment.

Isn`t 100% profit enough? No they want to make 500% and more.

Frank
 
The pricing on something like a mattebox will never be comparable to a mass market toy like your friend's radio controlled car. Economies of scale change everything. What a tiny company needs to charge to make a decent profit on a mattebox that might be expected to sell let's say ~250 units a year has nothing to do with what you need to charge on a Chinese-made toy that might sell millions.

The indie filmmaker market is a like a speck of dust on the sales chart of the toy industry.
 
I was interested in the IndieMattebox... that and the indieSlider and while the Slider is still on my list... the RedRock Mattebox is gonna be the better choice for me.

Way too gorgeous to pass up.
 
I hear that argument over and over.

But they would sale more if they would have better prices.

I would love to buy a Chrosziel but I did not because they wanted to make too much profit. So the cash went to India.

The market is big enough and it is getting bigger with more poeple buing semipro cams like the HVX they want matteboxes and railsupports and more.

This market is changing verry fast now and those mature companys like Arri have to rethink if they want a share. Guys like me will never pay that prices and look for better alternatives. Litte companys and one-man-shows like Cool-Lights amd Siniarch will take over that lower semipro segment with smarter and better priced products.

The old saying "you get what you pay for" was never right.

"You get what you pay for minus the profit of that company"

Some companys charged big $$ for simple of the shelf things like the stainless Arri rods I mentioned above. That´s over now.

I´m developing some gear in the moment.

Slider, Jib Arm, Dolly, Mattebox and a rail support.

Everything will be made here in Germany with little local companys.

Everything will be stainless steel or aircraft grade alluminum - no plastic at all.

The linear bearings we use for the slider are top industry quality, down to 0.001mm exact.
But it will be cheaper as what is on the market now.

It can be done and we will do it.



Frank
 
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Postmaster said:
I hear that argument over and over.

But they would sale more if they would have better prices.

I would love to buy a Chrosziel but I did not because they wanted to make too much profit. So the cash went to India.

The market is big enough and it is getting bigger with more poeple buing semipro cams like the HVX they want matteboxes and railsupports and more.

This market is changing verry fast now and those mature companys like Arri have to rethink if they want a share. Guys like me will never pay that prices and look for better alternatives. Litte companys and one-man-shows like Cool-Lights amd Siniarch will take over that lower semipro segment with smarter and better priced products.

The old saying "you get what you pay for" was never right.

"You get what you pay for minus the profit of that company"

Some companys charged big $$ for simple of the shelf things like the stainless Arri rods I mentioned above. That´s over now.

I´m developing some gear in the moment.

Slider, Jib Arm, Dolly, Mattebox and a rail support.

Everything will be made here in Germany with little local companys.

Everything will be stainless steel or aircraft grade alluminum - no plastic at all.

The linear bearings we use for the slider are top industry quality, down to 0.001mm exact.
But it will be cheaper as what is on the market now.

It can be done and we will do it.



Frank
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Are you going to sell this stuff?
If so, I of course expect you to do it on a non profit basis...
 
No, it is only for inhouse use in our own production company.
But if we are happy with it, I will make all the plans and how to DIY puplic domain.

Frank
 
Because we are a film company.
We can deveolp gear for our own needs and have it made localy, but if you go for the mass market that`s a different game. You need poeple wit experiance in that field and you need time. We rather spend our time doing our profession. Why should I theach a good DP how to use a mill or a lathe?

But who knows, maybe we start a second company for just that.
With experianced poeple that can take care of everything that is involved in such a project.
I think there is plenty money in fair priced good quality equipment.

Would you buy a $200 FF that is at least as good as any Chrosziel?
I would say yes.

Frank
 
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I used to sell indiFOCUS, which does the job but is nowhere near the build quality and performance of an Arri or Chrosziel follow-focus. Not in the same league by price or performance. I'm not slamming them. To the contrary, they have made a certain functionality available to budding craftspeople who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford it.

The RR follow focus isn't in the same class either, but might be close enough to pass for a low budget filmmaker.

The Cavision follow-focus is excellent in every respect. Their dual wheel focus is a feature-rich bargain at half the price of Arri or Chrosziel. I'm a user and a dealer, so color me biased. Doesn't change the fact that it is the truth.

Guys like Tim Ovel are putting intermediate products out there (without pirating another company's R&D) that should satisfy the lowest-budgets.

That leaves the pro market, which is well covered to the point of excess and the DIY who will find out that they cannot produce professionally-acceptable products at a pricepoint better than what is already available. If anything, they'll reverse-engineer a patented design and find that actually reproducing it to comparable tolerances and pricepoint is next to impossible and certainly not sustainable as they figure in R&D, fixed-cost overhead, outsource details and so on.

Every once in awhile, you'll get something like the Letus35 Extreme, which is, at least temporarily, available at a fraction of the cost of the original equipment it substitutes (e.g., P+S 35). Once you add real features like a precision PL mount, things change as they have at The Adapter Place.

That's a fact of business in the business.

e
 
Postmaster said:
My "indian ripp of" works great.
And it is not cheap when you know that they have it made for under $20 but sale it for allmost $280. $40 would be cheap.

Vocas did not loose a cent because I would never pay such a insane price for such a cheap and simple device as a mattebox - so they never would get my money anyways.

Only a complete idiot pays 75 euros for those Arri stainless rails when he can get the same thing in the next hardware store for 15 euros.

I did that, and my 15 euro rails work as smooth as the Arri rails I rented a while ago.

You only pay for the sticker and because it is film related (uuuuuh Hollywood!)

If that mattebox would be for a sewing machine or a toy it would be $15.

A friend got a very large remote controll 57 Chevy for x-mas.
Motor, engine sound, remote, working air ride andwhatnot.
A zillion more parts and motors and electronics and stuff. But it comes for about the same price as the india mattebox.

So yes it is a ripp off, but not such a big ripp off as all the "brand" equipment.

Isn`t 100% profit enough? No they want to make 500% and more.

Frank
Click to expand...

I have nothing against pricing a product to be affordable. Just design it from the ground up and not steal someone's patent. Which is what Redrock is doing. When you write, produce and sell an original work of art be it a movie or a novel, would you take offense when it's pirated? By your logic someone buying the bootleg would say: "why pay 20 bucks for the legit DVD when I can get a bootleg for 3 dollars."

Patent stealing is right down there with copyright infringement. Sure there might be some minor differences between the Vocas and the imitators (like rotating stages), but the basic design of the box, especially the internal eyebrows (a Vocas exclusive and well patented) are theirs.

Nothing thwarts innovation as much as letting intellectual property and patents be stolen with impunity. If you make a living in film or music, you know what I'm talking about. RIght now in India the feature film market has been devastated by pirating to the point that the number of film starts dropped drastically over the last five years. Patent stealing has the same effect on innovation. Why put the money into the R&D when someone will steal it shortly after coming to market? You wouldn't have DVD's if manufacturers didn't have to pay a licensing fee.

Without patent protection, you wouldn't have RED. Would Garret Brown even have bothered inventing the Steadicam if he knew an Indian knock off would be out shortly after he brought it to market? The knock off market gives you what you need in the short term at a what price. When you wake up one day and no one's producing films for theatrical or inventing cool products like they used to, then it'll sink in. To say China's and Pakistans pirate market hasn't effected how you make living is to be in denial.

I agree vocas and chrosziel are too expensive for much of the market at dvx user. I don't believe they're an evil rip-off that deserves to be stolen from. They were originally designed for a small pro market and their quality reflects that as well. As this market grows, the pressure and the viability for an affordable low cost matte box presents itself. There are currently other less felonious choices out there. I just think the Vocas is truly an original design and its theft is blatant.

Buying knock offs is aiding and abetting. It's like buying the mountain bike from the junkie for 50 bucks. Sure it's cheap and it works, but it's stolen. Because Vocas would never get your money, does it justify buying a stolen design? I think the people on this site, most in the business of creating original programming should be especially sensitive to this. Inventions and patents are as creative and precious to the inventors and designers as scripts, movies and copyright are to filmmakers. As someone who just recently saw a music video on BET based on a treatment I submitted to the very Big Record company, stolen and then awarded to another director, I understand what it means to be on the other end. The legal fees are crushing and often not make it worth it. Vocas has initiated legal action but my guess, it must cost them a fortune.

The complaints against pricing are specious at best. They charge what they can get. If there's a better competitor that's cheaper then that's where the market goes. Chrosziel still commands its price because they're going for a small market that needs uncompromising pro quality and performance, like a Porsche verses an EVO. But they're cheaper than Arri's products, so that's why they're in business. Same goes for Zacuto. The remote control car probably sells millions. A matte box - in the thousands, so how can you claim rip-off? The economies of scale are undeniable. The low cost adaptor market has discovered a niche that's much larger than the full on pro market of the PS technik. So they can charge significantly less (albeit at a less pro level).

To use the "rip off" theory as a justification to your complicity in patent theft is ethically indefensible. You design an original invention, charge a million dollars at thousand times mark up if you want. It's not a "rip off" to the buyer. If you design, build a house and put it on the market several times "market" value are your ripping people off and deserve to be stolen from? The market will set you straight and you'll reassess your pricing.

And the last question I have is: if a matte box is so simple to design and cheap to make, then why are companies settling for the "rip off" rather than design something orginal and perhaps better? Maybe they're afraid they too will get cannibalized by the Indian monster. It is in our interest to support original and effective design as it is to foreswear buying bootlegged movies. We need good products as much as we need a job in film. Good luck and God speed to Red Rock. If it's as good as promised, it will set off a market correction for Chrosziel, Petroff and Vocas, all done legitimately.
 
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I know what you mean Tim, I had several ideas stolen from me and I know how that feels.

But selling of the shelf rods for almost 5 times the price? Comm on..
What inovation is that? Same goes for a FF.

What can you steel there? (fluid FF is an other thing).
Those gear boxes are a not something special Arri developed. They are standard industry components that is used in lot´s of machines and you can buy them of the shelf.

Have a look at websites for those standard components. You will be shocked how much of the stuff you see there is pretty familiar.

From some of those sites you can buy almost whole Zacuto rigs together.
Rods, clamps, Arms, Fasteners, Knobs, Grips andwhatnot.

They don´t reinvent the wheel or have everything custom made.
They buy most of the components and have only some parts milled, drilled or somhow made.

That´s what I have done when I needed that slider.
Linear bearings, high end rods and brackets can be bought in superb
german industry quality for 150 Euros. They are used in CNC Industry not ment for Film but it works.

That´s not inventing something. It´s just use what is aviable anyways in a clever way.

I watched a interview with some retired DPs.
One of that "old hands" said something like:

"I knew there got to be something better, so I looked outside the Film industrie. And there it was, other industries using that stuff for years - we just where blind- you may have to modify it a bit but it was way better and cheaper than all we had"

Thinking outside the box and make smarter equipment for everybody (not only the big studios) available - that`s inovation and not patenting a simple 90 degree gearbox and some cog wheels so they can initiated legal action on everybody who would make a similar thing.

Thinking only in profit and $$$ is a nasty habit that brought us to the situation where we are today.

Lot´s of great ideas where strangled to death by patent loyers and legal action. Here in Germany the "Telecom " patented the "T" and the Color Magenta so nobody can use that color or thet letter anymor for a logo.

Is it that what you call creativity or is it exactly that what actually kills creativity by - so called - law?

You should think more in terms of Inspiration than in terms of steeling.

The Indians copyed (more or less) some feature of the vocas box. O.K.

Will that hurt Vocas in any way?

No. Poeple that buy Vocas boxes would not buy indian boxes.
And poeple who buy indian boxes would never afford a Vocas box.

The indian box may look similar but that´s about it.
You can´t compare the quality (thou both are too expensive for what they are) it´s like day and night.

But you can compare the Indian box to some of the same indian boxes that get repackt and maybe a bit revamped and sold in America under several brand and names. I there something saying they stolen that design from those poor indians or even from Vocas?

For your last question:

Designig a good mattebox is no rocket science. Every $20 exhaust muffler is more complicated, got more material and more engeneering in it than a simple mattebox.

I have several ideas how to improof a mattebox for my needs and I build one for me.
But will I market it?

How big is the risk, that someone may copy it and how big is the risk that someone will put up some legal action against me because mine looks similar to the one he patented?

I would rather get copied than sued.



Frank
 
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Congratulations to the fruits of your resourcefulness. But that has nothing to do with my reply. I think you missed my point.

I'm referring to knock offs of patented designs that are still under patent, such as the Vocas mattebox internal eyebrows. It's a great idea and there's a reason no other reputable companies use them (because they're still under patent). It'll be standard in ten years or so when the patent runs out. Steadicam used to be but is now public domain (patent expired).

Never said a follow focus gear box is a patented design. Those have been in the public domain for quite some time (patent lasts 20 years). I've no objection to charging 150 dollars for rods. But you'd be a fool to buy them as there are cheaper alternatives out there that don't infringe on any patents. Have you noticed that none of the low cost flourescent light manufacturers like Cool Lights offer bulb fixtures that can be detached from the housing and mounted as just the bulb alone? Because Kino Flo owns that patent for about another five years. It's the one feature that keeps me from buying Cool Lights. But without patent law it may never have come into existence.

I started my reply because the Indian matte boxes and a few others are blatant theft of a patented design. They are part of a larger knock off economy that is running rampant in S Asia and China and have a profound effect on R & D and innovation. This is entirely different than the commendable work you're doing with your own products.

The concept of a mattebox is not an enforceable patent. The specific design of Vocas is. The Indian Company looks like they literally lifted the blue prints, it's that obvious. It's like stealing someone's novel, changing the names and printing it on cheap paper.

I'm all for better and cheaper just not for patent theft. We're in the business of creating original products. We should respect others. If you were to manufacturer your own cheaper steadicam arm/vest 20 years ago, you deserve to get legally slammed against the wall. But what you're doing is not that case. What the Indian knock off is doing to Vocas is.
 
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I think you completely underestimate the complexity of a good matte box. Have you ever looked at an Arri MB-20? It is not just a box you mount in front of your camera. Why do you think there is still quite a bit of room for improvement. Just look at the freshdv review of some matte boxes and you will find out that even the well established brand matte boxes have room for improvement. Redrock started to design a low cost matte box more or less from scratch and it took them quite some time to the finished design (it is not even out yet and I think they started somewhen in 2006). I am sure it will be good for the price but I do not think that they can directly compete with Arri even though that was their goal. Same thing with Follow Focuses, the Redrock is good, actually very good for it's price but still not as good as a Chrosziel or Arri FF. So why not? Because it would need even more R&D which is expensive....
just my two cents....

PS: I think to say that somebody who buys a India nock off matte box would never buy a vocas matte box is wrong. If there is no alternative that even comes close to the vocas you might be forced to buy a vocas if you need one... For some people even though they could afford a vocas they might now consider a cheap india matte box to satisfy their needs...
 
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Tim Naylor said:
I have nothing against pricing a product to be affordable. Just design it from the ground up and not steal someone's patent. Which is what Redrock is doing......... Shortned for length
Click to expand...

I understand your argument, but the claims you're making are huge accusations if not correct. I understand the indian matte box but are you 100% sure indifocus, and cinevate stole vocas' design? Are you sure redrock's is any different? Matte boxes are made to do the same thing, there's only so many ways they can look. To straight up say they stole is a dangerous thing to make other people think if not true.

Anyone from indifocus, cinevate, or redrock want to weigh in on this?
 
ecking said:
I understand your argument, but the claims you're making are huge accusations if not correct. I understand the indian matte box but are you 100% sure indifocus, and cinevate stole vocas' design? Are you sure redrock's is any different? Matte boxes are made to do the same thing, there's only so many ways they can look. To straight up say they stole is a dangerous thing to make other people think if not true.

Anyone from indifocus, cinevate, or redrock want to weigh in on this?
Click to expand...

They're accusations if correct as well. And cars too are all made to do the same thing as well, which is carry passengers and roll. The concept of a car is not patentable. But if Ford designed a car that looked just like a Porsche 911 there would be infringement on the design of the body though not the concept of a car. But by some twisted logic, some would say, what would be the crime if Ford buyers would never buy a Porsche? Don't be naive. Many people say they wouldn't pay 1500 for a Gucci bag but would buy a knock off in Chinatown for 200. To say that doesn't hurt Gucci's sales is beyond ignorant. There's a size able segment that not given the alternative would save up for it. Also knock offs have the effect of lowering the value of the genuine article. The originator gets stiffed on both ends. If knock offs had no effect on sales then Vocas wouldn't be taking action.

I don't think cinevate or indifocus stole anything. I think they outsourced from a company that did. The mods are minor. The materials absolutely inferior (on the Indian one). But one look at the Vocas and easy to conclude it was not likely a design innocently stumbled upon. From the shape, bracing, to the internal eyebrows.

I've studied the designs of Redrock and looked at and worked with just about every Mattebox ever made from ancient Arris, Mitchells, Panavisions, Arri MB's, Chrosz, Petroff, to the velcro one and I've yet to see a design like RRocks. It looks to me like they're doing it from the ground up. It could be the reason it's taking so long. You know, design, spec, parts, protos, test, design again, etc....
 
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