The Greatest Low Budget Lighting Item Ever!

[MattinSTL]

My posts within this thread are also directed at DIY and rock bottom cash expense... all I was saying the entire time here (and trying to prove) is that just because you buy a bulb that says 5500k it may not match another bulb that says 5500k... I'm talking about practical experience and manufacturer variances... for me this is about sharing free knowledge and growing the knowledge base.

Am I a perfectionist? Yeah... in fact I think I could not only please the guy who doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together with a cheap light... I think I could also please those 7-Up execs with that same cheap light's output.

My posts weren't intended to start splitting hairs, but rather to illustrate that there can be a clear difference in two sources that are defined as equal kelvin... I would never make a statement about people seeing a difference in 50k of color temp as implied... but anybody can see the difference in two equally spec'ed bulbs due to other factors outside of manufacturer's claims when one pushes pink and the other pushes yellow.

 

[Cool Lights]

My posts within this thread are also directed at DIY and rock bottom cash expense... all I was saying the entire time here (and trying to prove) is that just because you buy a bulb that says 5500k it may not match another bulb that says 5500k... I'm talking about practical experience and manufacturer variances... for me this is about sharing free knowledge and growing the knowledge base.

Am I a perfectionist? Yeah... in fact I think I could not only please the guy who doesn't have 2 nickels to rub together with a cheap light... I think I could also please those 7-Up execs with that same cheap light's output.

My posts weren't intended to start splitting hairs, but rather to illustrate that there can be a clear difference in two sources that are defined as equal kelvin... I would never make a statement about people seeing a difference in 50k of color temp as implied... but anybody can see the difference in two equally spec'ed bulbs due to other factors outside of manufacturer's claims when one pushes pink and the other pushes yellow.

It's becoming pretty clear to me that just because a manufacturer says that a bulb is a certain color temp doesn't mean that it really is and just because they say it is 93 CRI -- well, let's just say I'm not sure how any of us could really prove it. Nothing wrong with perfectionism -- as long as it doesn't get in the way of making a living.

Lastly, on this subject of "enhancing profits by buying DIY lighting" I can definitely build a fixture for less than the professionally available ones and it will do anything that that pro one will do. They don't have any components available to them that I can't also get (there's nothing magic about the ballasts they are using and most of the reflectors on these pro fixtures look very simplistic). I will save money and still look like I am using Pro fixtures--thus managing perceptions of clients or other "stakeholders". I know how to get a professionally built sheet metal chassis too. In addition to all this, I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm using tools I designed and built and can modify at any time as my knowledge on the subject gets better.

 

[Illya Friedman]

period[/I]? I think this where you say "well i really do need 5600K to render this color the best." But if you use the same 5600K bulb on different days and the color varies even as much as 10%, hard to believe they can tell. Perhaps if you have the spider attached to your PC screen to sense colors but just by site it could be difficult i think. Also, you may be talking about an issue that is mostly in photography not for film and video in general.

I don't think you followed what I was saying. Looking at a vectorscope you can see exactly what the color is. This is a professional standard, and is used in HD and Video production.

After reading the responses, I think that I shouldn't have brought up the real-workd concerns of a professional commercial situation, there's a bit of a curve here and it's not applicable to the low-end world. My rational was that, it's always best to know the rules of a situation before deciding where to break or bend them.

I.

 

[Illya Friedman]

Illya... rule number 1... don't ever talk about a cheap product that really impressed you w/o giving a link! A $17 China ball kit complete with mounting spud? I'm sure I could do something like that but let's see it! Link Please!.

I saw it in person, I'll have to ask my friend where he got it.

I.

 

[Illya Friedman]

I think if you have a client, that is paying you the ammount of money to actually justify him being crazy about color reproduciton on set (If you are donig a high-priced ad) you have to be honest enough to spend and have the best equipment you can afford. If I was producing a commercial budgeted for thousands and thousands of dollars, I woudn't try to enhance my profits with DIY lighting items, so I guess this discussion is somewhat moot. But there are great points to be taken, no doubt abot it.

You are absolutely correct!

I.

 

[Jon Oskar]

What a great thread!!!

Correct me if im wrong, isn't the biggest problem with these kind of tube lights that they are an "off color" and therefore cant be corrected as the corresponding gels don't exist.???

What is the problem in getting true daylight tubes?

Lastly, on this subject of "enhancing profits by buying DIY lighting" I can definitely build a fixture for less than the professionally available ones and it will do anything that that pro one will do. They don't have any components available to them that I can't also get (there's nothing magic about the ballasts they are using and most of the reflectors on these pro fixtures look very simplistic). I will save money and still look like I am using Pro fixtures--thus managing perceptions of clients or other "stakeholders". I know how to get a professionally built sheet metal chassis too. In addition to all this, I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm using tools I designed and built and can modify at any time as my knowledge on the subject gets better.

What is the real cost of making an actual 4 bed Kino, using same parts as in the commercial version?

 

[MattinSTL]

Now I'm laughing... I really want the conversation to go here.

So far the cheapest I've been able to produce a dimming ballast that will control 2 x 55w biax tubes is about $145 per ballast... I could probably do 4 x 55w for not a whole lot more. This is JUST the ballast I'm talking here...

This ballast will dim the flo tubes to about 30%... which appears to be only about 60%... and this is why I put dimming flos on hold.

I don't think a guy could DIY a Diva 400 for less then some figure between $300 and $400...

 

[Illya Friedman]

What a great thread!!!

Correct me if im wrong, isn't the biggest problem with these kind of tube lights that they are an "off color" and therefore cant be corrected as the corresponding gels don't exist.???

What is the problem in getting true daylight tubes?

Discontinuous spectrum like some arcs, sodium and "Cool White" Flos, have spikes at certain wave lengths and nearly none of other. Incandescent lights on the other hand (and ceramics) give off a continuous spectrum from infrared to close to ultraviolet, even though you can't see every step with your eyes.

Gels may not always help your color correction, or they may work fine- depending on the type of lamp source. The way it was explained to me, you can remove (filter out) light that's there, but gels can't add wavelengths of light that are lacking.

Unfortunately, it's so hard to see these spikes and valleys of a discontinuous spectrum with just our eyes. Our brain adjusts and completes a more-or-less normal spectrum of colors in areas with discontinuous spectrum lighting. Ever close one eye for a while in a room lit with CF and then open it in a area with near same levels of natural light? You can switch back and forth between a warm and cool look, by just opening and closing each eye. Biology can be fun.

As an aside, If you only need a very narrow wavelength of light for a scene, most ccds and film don't seem to respond the best. If you're shooting film, and need a monochrome look- like red in a darkroom, better to shoot it with white light and time it red in printing. Fotokem will project a test for you of a shoot that compares shooting with just red light, and incandescent white with red color correction at the lab. The results are surprising, the white light gives a much cleaner picture. There's science to back it up, and there's people that can speak to it far better than I.

Back on the topic of Flos, modern Flo tubes are MUCH better, say those made in the past 15 years. Kino Flo has really made them acceptable for all kinds of photographic work. Now most every major industry lighting company offers some sort of Flo lighting. Mole's Max Blast put out a lot of light, and have a unique reflective focusing grid that doesn't hurt output, it's very impressive.

There are also some generic flo tubes that are comparable to the name brands. It's important to be aware that they are not all equal (e.g. home depot), and that mixing brands could result in an undesired result, or you may want that result... It's really up to the shooter.

I once shot a music video called "Drive" with some hand processed Super-8 and 16mm. It's what the director wanted. At the time I was actually against it. We tested the hand-process look long before shooting. After seeing the test I was convinced that it was the right way to go, and I'm glad we did it now. The video has a bunch of purposely bad "Starsky & Hutch" poorman's process driving shots, mixed with some actual driving, black & white, color and several formats. If you're curious you can watch it on-line. You can't really see what it looks like low-res on the net, but you'll get a general idea:
http://www.captaingenius.net/quicktimes/Drivemed.mov

My cautions are really to those who just jump in and don't test anything before they shoot. Some products may be fine and a terrific bargain, others may not. It's important to know the tool you're using and use the right one. Another axiom... failing to prepare is preparing to fail.

I.

 

[tigeba]

I have some of the 5600K 23W spirals from naturallighting.com, and I just purchased some of the BlueMax bulbs with the same specs, so I can probably shoot a little side by side comparison. Unfortunately I don't have a real color chart, but I do have a Don Earl color sync slate so I will go with that.

 

[Cool Lights]

Now I'm laughing... I really want the conversation to go here.

So far the cheapest I've been able to produce a dimming ballast that will control 2 x 55w biax tubes is about $145 per ballast... I could probably do 4 x 55w for not a whole lot more. This is JUST the ballast I'm talking here...

This ballast will dim the flo tubes to about 30%... which appears to be only about 60%... and this is why I put dimming flos on hold.

I don't think a guy could DIY a Diva 400 for less then some figure between $300 and $400...

Hehe. Got a real firestorm going here don't we. :violent5:

Two distinct threads within one. Anyway back on the ORIGINAL TOPIC of the "low end" as one person here put it. I found a better solution for dimming but it is still expensive. Using the 42w triple twin tube bulbs and their corresponsing dimmable ballasts is the "breakover" point where the ballasts are closer to reasonable prices and the ballasts can be found more commonly at closeout prices.

I built 5 of my 126w softlite fixtures and 3 of them have dimmers. There are two distinct dimming technologies in fluorescent and I used the more "advanced" one. Those fixtures have 3 42w bulbs in them.

I needed two ballasts--one to drive two bulbs and another to drive 1 bulb. I was able to find suitable dimmable ballasts (2 bulb ones) for about $58 each--retail. I then found a ballast on ebay for $8 that drove one bulb. This fixture holds 3 bulbs so I was set with these two ballasts. By the way, I later found some of those other more expensive $58 ballasts on Ebay for $15.00--some kind of liquidation.

Anyway, after that you need one control voltage dimmer unit that I got for $28 on Ebay and you are set. Those dimmers will dim many many ballasts so you can have a huge fixture and control all the bulbs with the one dimmer. I can dim from 10% to 100% with these. The other technology is probably the one MattinSTL is using which is spec'd to dim from abt 20% to 100%.

As MattinSTL said though, I think its really expensive even at these prices and hard to justify. But if you can use the 42w triple twin tube bulbs which are just as good quality wise as 55w biax bulbs you can use dimming technology a bit cheaper. And perhaps you can find the 55w bulb dimming ballasts for less if you keep looking. But retail prices on those ballasts are phenomenally high.

For now, switching individual ballasts on and off is a good poor man's dimmer. But I am working on a less expensive source of dimmable ballasts though!

 

[RichW]

As a newcomer, I would ask, why 5500 k rather than 3200 k?

Also, I thought that fluorescents were not dimmable?


Thanks.

 

[Geoff_R]

As a newcomer, I would ask, why 5500 k rather than 3200 k?

Also, I thought that fluorescents were not dimmable?


Thanks.

It's not a question of choosing 5.5k over 3.2 k, they're used for different situations. Sunlight during the day has a temperature of approx. 5.5 k on average. Indoor house lights have a color temp of 3.2 k. When indoors at night, you'll most likely use lights balanced at 3.2 k. Now let's say you're shooting a daytime scene in your living room, you've got the windows open but you want to add some fill to the actors face, you can use a light balanced with a 5.5 k bulb and it will mostly match the sunlight coming in through the window.

 

[Ralph Oshiro]

As a newcomer, I would ask, why 5500 k rather than 3200 k?

Also, even for non-photographic applications, 5600K-balanced lighting just looks "whiter." Whiter, and "cleaner." Incandecents and non-daylight flourecents look very yellow (warm), even to the naked eye. All of the practical lighting in my house is 5600K--just because I hate the look of yellowish incandecent lighting, aesthetically.

By the way . . . where can I buy some of Miracom's cool fixtures?

 

[Cool Lights]

Also, even for non-photographic applications, 5600K-balanced lighting just looks "whiter." Whiter, and "cleaner." Incandecents and non-daylight flourecents look very yellow (warm), even to the naked eye. All of the practical lighting in my house is 5600K--just because I hate the look of yellowish incandecent lighting, aesthetically.

By the way . . . where can I buy some of Miracom's cool fixtures?

Oh someone resurrected this thread. Seemed to have died back in June.

My site is up and running at www.coollights.biz and we have some goodies there now although I haven't posted all of them yet (and more coming soon). I've also got a Blog going and soon a Vlog too.

As for the 5500K vs. 3200K debate. What everyone said is true here. You can be influenced by personal choice (I like daylight a lot too--after you get used to 5500K bulbs everything else looks drab in comparison).

That said. From a digital photo/video point of view it doesn't matter much really with white balancing to either standard on a finished video or digital photo. Film is a whole different problem and I personally prefer not to use film anymore at all because of all the complications involved in dealing with it.

 

[Cool Lights]

As a newcomer, I would ask, why 5500 k rather than 3200 k?

Also, I thought that fluorescents were not dimmable?


Thanks.

Fluorescents can be dimmable. Even some CFLs can be dimmable but most are not. For instance, the 55 watt biax 2G11 tubes that many pro fixtures use are completely dimmable or not dimmable depending upon whether you use a dimmable ballast for it or not. The only issue that comes in is cost. Dimming fluorescent ballasts are really expensive unless you can catch some in liquidation somewhere cheaper. Even then you still need a costly special control voltage dimmer for most of the types of dimmable ballasts that are out there.

As for CFL, self-ballasted bulbs, I've bought dimmable CFL bulbs in the 20w range on eBay. Unfortunately though the color temp selection was limited to 2700K (at least last year anyway) and 2700K has never been my favorite choice! And I preferred 30 watt bulbs too for what I've been doing.

So you find other creative ways to "dim" the lights like extra diffusion material or backing the fixture up further and choking the light down a bit more with barn doors, etc. As you may see in some of the pictures of the fixtures I use, I even added diffusion "softlite" hoods which are normally not needed for fluorescent because its already very soft but some fixtures turned out much more strong than I expected so I was experimenting with ways to tone down the light.

Another poor man's dimmer is having one ballast per bulb and then have one switch per each ballast/bulb combo. This too unfortunately is expensive but not as expensive as the dimmer. So most settle for one switch per two bulbs/ballast. Its just not convenient to switch individual bulbs on/off unless you dedicate one ballast per bulb.

 

[El Gato Negro]

Is this simliar to GE Reveal Light Bulb, which filter out the dull yellow rays? I got one about a year ago just to see how it would light up my room. Had some extremely vibrant hues, loved it. I knew I wanted to test it with some still photography but just totally forgot about it and this forum brought it back to my attension. thanks.

 

[Cool Lights]

Is this simliar to GE Reveal Light Bulb, which filter out the dull yellow rays? I got one about a year ago just to see how it would light up my room. Had some extremely vibrant hues, loved it. I knew I wanted to test it with some still photography but just totally forgot about and this forum brought it back to my attension. thanks.

Here's what the GE website says about those incandescent "Reveal" bulbs:

What Makes GE Reveal® Bulbs Different


GE Reveal bulbs make colors "pop" in a way they don't with standard incandescent bulbs.

Why? The rare earth element neodymium that's in the glass. (It's what gives these bulbs their distinctive blue color when unlit.) When these bulbs are lit, the neodymium provides a pure, clean light by filtering out much of the dulling yellow cast common from ordinary light bulbs.


So they basically depend upon blue glass to become a filter. You don't get any of the other energy saving features of fluorescent (like less heat for instance) and you are dealing with a hard point tungsten light that's been diffused with frosted glass so its a bit softer like a fluorescent too.