The Great Divide - Professional and Amateur

One of my fondest memories of those days; we had a departure out of Arcade around 5 am for Sacramento. Climbing out and turning east we would watch the sun rise over Mount Shasta. Drop dead gorgeous. I used to say that nobody but nobody had a better view out their office window than me. If I ever move back to California, Sacramento is about as far south as I would go.
 
Chadfish said:
olindacat

It sounds like you are already a pro. I go through all the same issues, with the main one being money. Right now I'm making 20 second ads (no not 30) for 250.00 a pop, and not even at one a week. It's disgusting that the parent station to the one I do ads for is trying to maximize their own profit by offering 20 sec spots, so they can fit more in, and on top of it they use the length of the ad as a reason to cut my normally abysmal 300.00 for a 30 down by 50.00, even though it takes as much work to do a 20, if not more. Here's what I do for 250.00:
No lights or location audio. Just an EX1, a VO and a dream... They so don't deserve me. I scrounge other little jobs here and there and I manage to get by. Partially because my rent is cheap. I have to do most of my stuff myself because I can't afford to hire, and in the case of audio, I'm the audio guy as far as video goes in my little town. I will say that relationships are pretty important. If enough people know what you do, then they remember that when they need - what you do. I'm lucky in that I got in with a local station that needs lots of ads made. Every ad is an opportunity to better my reel, even though it doesn't pay much. And I still say that good gear is important even if you are just starting out. Not that you need the best, but really you simply couldn't do what I do, no matter how good you are, with a SD video8 camcorder. So you need to just be patient and save 20 bucks here, 50 bucks there. That's how I get my gear. I have a cash envelope that whenever any cash comes into my hands it goes in there. I'm up to 400.00 for the next cool thing! Also trade is a great way to get stuff. See something you need? Ask the person who makes it if they need something you can do. I can't afford EX1 base plates (300.00 for 2). I definitely found out I need them when I broke my stock tripod plate on my ex1 2 months ago, causing 2,700.00 damage - luckily covered by my protection plan. Anyway I hit up the maker of the base plate and will do a demo vid that alerts people to the risk of the crappy stock plate on the EX1, and informs them that there is a solution, and in return I get the gear I need.

Anyway I'm just saying to keep the faith, and find a way. Join the Rotary! All those a-holes are all about patting each other on the back and giving each other business. If you were the only video guy in Rotary you would be swimming in jobs. I would suggest cold calling businesses, but man, that's my idea if Hell... In Hell, everyone's job is being a telemarketer, having to do endless cold calls. But if you can handle that - it can drum up business. I can't do that though.
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OMG... I can't comment on this in the time I've got this AM but want to just say I so feel for you. You're doing what agencies out here get paid $$s for by yourself and I know exactly how that feels. The 'job' I had paid the 'pro' for the other day? Barter. I'm laying out cash and getting pieces of paper that have expiration dates and caveats galore on them. I have to run a second business online and on wholesale markets to try to sell the script and convert it to cash. I have a real hard cost in printing that is about 65% of income. So, if I don't sell that barter fast, I'm terrified. I have to drop the price and hand deliver the certs personally and we're talking 100s of individual piddling transactions. Every time I make the 'sale' and get the 'job' I learned to regret it. This same job I've been talking about was both corp image video, show footage, and stills for a cover/feature they're giving me barter for. The cover is just a bonus to show their logo and place, but Im supposed to have some control over it. Oh no.... Yesterday, with last night being my deadline, client said she didn't like any of the 125 shots we selected as finals for the cover and for her highness. I have to cut out hair and heads and hands and overlay four of the best shots over the masthead and then send her four comps so she could pick my cover! I was so stressed out I was going to ask you to send me some Arcata crops ;-)

Thirteen cuts in this spot. Did you write the script too? Did you walk them through it as wing or actually storyboard it? I can't imagine doing that. So, you got up knowing you had this job, your reputation on the line every time you walk out that door and put your name on the job. $250, $300 $50,000 it's the same right? People downplay it and say, WTF, it's no big deal, right? Like our reputations and lives are no big deal??? I swear I sometimes could bonk some people over the head when they downplay the importance of quality when our reps are on the line. Do you sit there when your editing and feel the pain like I do, but suck it up and spend countless hours only you know of making things just right? (I liked that cat shot by the way ;-)

Even searching for the right music or FX can take forever. 've used that. Oops, done that one too. Geez my inventory seems thin... I feel like that with 20K fonts.

So I went on a spree b/c I knew if I didn't put money down, and down now, I might never have it again. I figured, like in the case of the 702T, better to have my money tied up in that until I can ferret it all to, than to spend it investing in some other aspect of my business. Given how things are going, it's only a matter of time before I'm punching some clock at Walmart. Oh, I forgot, I'm too old and fat for that job. Maybe I can bag groceries or something.

I make my living taking pictures, and not much of that, and I've at the bottom of the food chain even in that discipline. I know I'm not ever going to be a real player in the video game, but thought I could pull a a lot together and string some tales that might be worth watching, even if only online. I have to say after watching your three spots here that I now see exactly how you and probably many others here are in the exact same boat. How discouraging....

I have to go to NYC to take care of my 85 yo dad. I lost my mother last year and hadn't spent enuf time, etc., we all know that drill. So I'm making my penance and going to be with the old guy (won the 71 nat'l clio for radio w/Jay and Day spots for Barney's using a cassette recorder and mic running around the streets of NYC ;-) -- weren't those the days.... Anyway, while I'm there, I was thinking of using the Overnight Prints or similar web-based printer who do those $99 rack card specials. I thought I might make a sales piece and a WP blog using a stock theme, and then just list gear and say I'm just learning and will give projects a super deal because of that. Then just repeat the same on the site and link to email. Simple but here's where I was thinking of you and others: monthly payments. People and small businesses think in terms of monthly payments, whereas big corps will look at annual budgets. That's why they make big buys. But little people don't have that kind of cash. If you say get $250-300 a spot that is only $20-$25 a month (think semantics here for a minute). So what if you tell every client you do the spots for (including say a list of emails for past ones too) "Hey, right now you're getting hit w/insertion costs, production costs, and what have you got for content on your website?" Now try this: "I have an idea that might help you. While I tape this next spot (or when I taped your last spot), I have footage that can repurposed for the web. I can easily make one spot a month with a different pre, mid, or post roll promomtion that you can feature on your site. I can switch it up a bit so you have 12 monthly promotions. I can do this for yuo for only (here's where you are looking them in the eye and gauging what you thihnk you can get away with: $125/mo.?? I'll make a YouTube 'channel' just for your store, upload each commercial every month, and send the code to you to easily cut and paste... Whatdaya think???"

NOw you've taken $250 or $20/mo and you're looking at maybe $65-$75-$125/mo for what essentially is saving the project is 12 files and dropping in new copy and just switching a couple of things around on the time line. Even smarter is to get it all done (with the exception of the final copy) and then call/email each month for the 'new web ad'. They'll love you, the relationship will be forged, you'll be able to point to this as a 'product' you sell, (you'll have to watch out for your bread and butter station), and you'll get $750, $1000, etc., per year instead of the lousy $300. I dunno know if it'd work in your neck of the woods, but in 200 I switched from producing all-new entire publications every month to doing them quarterly, bumping up the stock and press run slightly using economies of scale, and having my clients make that same monthly payment. I have kept their costs almost flat for years and when I went to semi-annually I was able to give them more for less and keep them. It's just a thought.

Doesn't require you to sell. You can just think about how to take your clients and give them something new. Almost any small business owner can see the value of new content for their site. If you are a resource for that you'll be golden. Esp if it is only $150-$175 a month... Heck, they pay that for cable! Just my $.03.
 
I just got back from the "Oyster Festival" in Arcata, Ca. We are a sea side area and enjoy lots of great treats from the sea.

Yes I wrote the script, then emailed it to the client, who tweaked a couple words here & there. I didn't story-board it, but wrote "Shot of cool person at computer" "Shot of person being helped by employee" etc. Again with these low-pay jobs I don't put a lot into it. I have my script and rough shot list of things I want to get, then in the moment I get the shots written on the script, then improvise more as I get ideas in the moment. Like I started with the 'gal at the computer' shots, then decided it would look cooler hand held and overcranked for some slow-mo. And as I shot, I saw the cat jump up, and knew that was going to be a keeper. A lot of these ads are mostly improvised shots, but with notes to myself to get a few specific things. And honestly, in the case of these type ads, the editing is the easiest part. Once I'm confident I have all I need in the can, it takes me about an hour to cut it together, slather on some magic bullet looks, and render it out, make a web version and upload to YouTube for approval. I probably spent a total of 4.5 hours on the Simply Mac job.

Sorry to hear about your mom olindcat. I lost mine to lung cancer in 2003. Have some fun with your dad in NY!
 
Hey Chadfish,

Good job. I have worked on nationals that had some huge budget, we didn't see much but they had a BIG staff of yes men, that weren't nearly as well put together. Clean neat and to the point. It's shocking how many ads are just??? What were you thinking. We worked on some of the Microsoft "Wow" ads. Those were major WTF???'s but you know some people bought houses off what they made for coming up with it.
 
Thanks Noiz2! It's disgusting how some people get paid for - not much. I guess it's about being connected, and selling the client mostly. It seems it doesn't matter if the ad it good, as much as it matters that the client thinks it's good. I just hope I'll be able to cash in on my skills without having to move to a big city. The web is making the world smaller every day though. I've managed to get some surprising gigs from people thousands of miles away without even soliciting them. So I'm hopeful that I'll find my own niche on my terms.
 
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Chadfish said:
The web is making the world smaller every day though. I've managed to get some surprising gigs from people thousands of miles away without even soliciting them. So I'm hopeful that I'll find my own niche on my terms.
Click to expand...

Keep up the good work with everything you do Chad.... Your expertise is readily apparent to anyone with an eye for quality.
 
Noiz2 said:
Hey Chadfish,

Good job. I have worked on nationals that had some huge budget, we didn't see much but they had a BIG staff of yes men, that weren't nearly as well put together. Clean neat and to the point. It's shocking how many ads are just??? What were you thinking. We worked on some of the Microsoft "Wow" ads. Those were major WTF???'s but you know some people bought houses off what they made for coming up with it.
Click to expand...

Working on Microsoft projects and WTF??? doesn't stop at ad campaigns... While some third party independent observer may disagree, but it seems that MS says 'we don't know how to do X, so get someone who does'... then spends the budget arguing that 'this isn't the way it ought to be'...

But I digress...
 
Hey Chad,

I went to your YouTube channel to check-out some other ad videos, and found some of your jingles... You are indeed a multi-talented producer! I didn't know that you were a musician too.

My partner and I have done quite a bit of jingle/radio biz as well. I have a couple of questions for you regarding your jingles-- Do you maintain any rights, or sell all as a buy-out?

If you maintain rights, have you had any success with collecting royalties? We maintain rights, but sell an exclusive territory; the idea was to be able to generate more income through ASCAP and BMI (I am a BMI writer, and my buddy is an ASCAP affiliate).

When I contacted BMI a few years back, they said "no problem, but get in line," because they were one to two years behind on documentation and payments, and you needed to file a lot of paperwork (traffic logs/customer buys/cue sheets, etc.), plus a CD copy of the jingle with copyright info. With the stations we worked with, it was very hard to get documentation. Chasing those folks down could be a full-time job.

My partner followed-up with ASCAP, and they basically laughed him off and said that our market was far too small to bother with...

So, if you know any secrets, please share. We've had all kinds of stuff on radio and TV (and websites), but it seems to be difficult to make any back-end. And you know how hard it is to make any front-end!

GJ
 
I consider my ads, as well as my jingles "work for hire". The client buys it once then they own it. If there were some national ad for a real beig company, MAYBE there could be some kind of royalty thing, but really there is no collecting on anything from a small market. I would say that any kind of talk like that will lose you the jingle gig. Nobody wants to pay you again and again to use the work they hired you to do, and I've never heard of it happening. So I say use this as a selling point. "When you get one of my jingles, it's yours. No royalties - ever." Again I don't make much n jingles! For a simple (guitar/bass/drums/vox) jingle I'll charge 500.00-ish. Because I'll already having to talk the people into the idea. If it's a larger production that required musicians besides myself, I'll pay them 100.00 a track. I try to adjust to the client. If it's some little mom & pop outfit, they don't have much, and hitting them with a big price will just lose you the job. I figure I can knock out a jingle in 8 hours, so that's 500.00 for a days work. That beats my boom op/mixer day rate of 400.00! But for the casino jingle I charged them 1,200.00 for me and 500.00 for my buddy Mike Kapitan to bust out a few tracks. Mike used to play with Thomas Dolby in the mid/late 80s. So for 1,700.00 they got this:

And man do they play it! What is cool is that when I am selling myself as a jingle maker, I can refer to "Cher-Ae Heights" and they know what I'm talking about.

Now this one I did when I was an employee at Precision Intermedia. And I was getting about 9.00 a frickin' hour. I was new at the job back in 2005 and it was one of my first TV ads. I came up with the companies Tag line (Waaaaay more than a feed store", came up with the idea of a Goat as their mascot (I used to milk goats for 8 years in the 90s!) wrote the jingle, performed the entire thing except for my girlfriend saying "Won't ya come on down" - a call to action. Shot the whole thing on my VX2100 and edited it. The client was not impressed with the jingle at first. She thought it made them seem like bumpkins - being so buoyant and blue grass sounding. I asked her what she listened to and she said "Christian music". Grrrrr. Anyway we got her to trust me, and now the jingle is one of the most known in the area. It gets stuck in people's heads. You have to talk people out of using their own "self reference criteria" when marketing themselves. I mean, they don't have to like the style you are working with because it's about getting attention, not playing your favorite music. Anyway, so at 9.00 bucks an hour I sent about 12 hrs on the jingle, which equals - screw you Chad. I made so much for that company with my few simple but effective ideas. They wouldn't even kick me a free cowboy shirt! Alas, this is why I am independent now. Anyway, here's that jingle:

And if you want to check out some of my real songs, meaning just songs I do for myself, here are some. I'm particularly proud of my ode to Autotune called "Sexy Satan (Autotune)". It's about how using autotune is like making a deal with the devil. You want to be a star but you don't want to work for it. Ha ha.

Here's my music: http://www.humboldtmusic.com/webpage/index.cfm?id=162

Scroll down to choose songs...
 
pmk396 said:
Guys, guys, guys!I knew my comment would ruffle a few feathers. The point that that I am trying to make is that an amateur needs a starting point when they want to move on from using their cameras onboard mic to something a bit better. That's all that I am trying to say.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. All this gear can also be sold after they've outgrown it for better gear. It's a learning curve and there is no end to how much could be spent on upgrades.

The NTG-2 is good, but soon you will want an NTG-3.
Kit $649 vs $999

The Jucedlink is clean, but wouldn't the new Mixpre-D be better?
$299 vs $749 both with phantom power.

What's the difference? $800 between the two packages. How much difference in quality for the beginner? Maybe none.

The point is there are a lot of acceptable places to start and learn. The bottom line is someone who doesn't have $948 to spend definitely doesn't have $1,748 to spend.

Something like this may be easier to afford/

Used Rode NGT-2 mint $174/
http://cgi.ebay.com/RODE-NTG-2-NTG2...457?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb8ef7881

Used Jucedlink CX211 $107/
http://cgi.ebay.com/Selling-juiced-...124?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a79a29b4

Used Gitzo Boom & shock mount $46.26/
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gitzo-boom-pole...740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2311794d8c

Total start up cost. $327.
When you sell who knows, you may even make money.

BTW No matter how solid an investment looks, nothing necessarily lasts forever. I thought when I bought a 35mm Arri 10 years ago, I would be using it for the rest of my life. Maybe I still can to anchor my boat.
 
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Hey again CF,

Great work, man.
Funny, things are a little different here (even in this crummy economy).
We have had quite a bit of success selling the jingle with a defined territory, and maintaining all other rights. As you said, small market, so very hard to collect airplay royalties. But, we like to keep options open, and the client would never pay for that anyway (not directly, anyway, although some of them do have ASCAP and BMI licenses,
if they are restaurants or media clients). But a nice jingle package goes for between $1500
and $3500 here, which is good, because as you said, that's probably the only money you'll ever see from that sale, and some of these jingles and spots can have a pretty long shelf-life!

I know what you mean about getting the client to understand what they're really buying, too. But, I will actually often try to do just the opposite, and use some of the clients musical interests/ input in the creative material (if it's appropriate to the product or service, of course). We've had Elvis-style, country, heavy rock, and Tom Petty-influenced jingles based on client preferences.

It would be nice to get a national sometime, and get some of that AFTRA $$$$!!!!

GJ
 
Amateur vrs professional?

Amateur vrs professional?

And this is a guy who thinks $600 for a shotgun is cheap!

Seriously, one has to draw the line somewhere. Yeah, we could all spend $10,000 and have a killer sound rig, but will it be the best choice on a limited budget.

Really, the solution is easy. When you are starting out, buy inexpensive, but good, or rent or borrow. Maybe you'll want to keep up with it. Maybe something else will catch your fancy.

If you begin to enjoy it, move up. Maybe purchase a great mic, a good boom, and practice with it. Use someone else's recorder, or boom, or whatever. Headphones can be cheap. If you start trying to make a living at it, buy top quality, and hope you'll earn enough to justify it.

Not everyone is going to try to make a living at it. I like to help on films, I find it a fun thing to do. I also like making my own shorts. But I'm not going to make a living at it.

Maybe that's the great divide.



Chadfish said:
olindacat

It sounds like you are already a pro. I go through all the same issues, with the main one being money. Right now I'm making 20 second ads (no not 30) for 250.00 a pop, and not even at one a week. It's disgusting that the parent station to the one I do ads for is trying to maximize their own profit by offering 20 sec spots, so they can fit more in, and on top of it they use the length of the ad as a reason to cut my normally abysmal 300.00 for a 30 down by 50.00, even though it takes as much work to do a 20, if not more. Here's what I do for 250.00:
Click to expand...
 
Pacific Northwest? Not so. Arcata is in California, isn't it? Which makes it the desert Southwest. You are lumped in with Phoenix.

Chadfish said:
Ha cool man! I wouldn't say Arcata has 30 fog days a year. I think the weather has changed. I hear stories of it being way more foggy in the 60s - 80s. I lived around here in the 90s, and it was half and half. There was a 7 year drout, then there was a lot of fog but not much rain. It's still more than I would like, but that's life on the coast of the Pacific NorthWest. People are taking Vitamin D because we don't get enough sun, though 10 miles inland it's warm and sunny.
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My point exactly.


ROCKMORE said:
I agree 100%. All this gear can also be sold after they've outgrown it for better gear. It's a learning curve and there is no end to how much could be spent on upgrades.

The NTG-2 is good, but soon you will want an NTG-3.
Kit $649 vs $999

The Jucedlink is clean, but wouldn't the new Mixpre-D be better?
$299 vs $749 both with phantom power.

What's the difference? $800 between the two packages. How much difference in quality for the beginner? Maybe none.

The point is there are a lot of acceptable places to start and learn. The bottom line is someone who doesn't have $948 to spend definitely doesn't have $1,748 to spend.

Something like this may be easier to afford/

Used Rode NGT-2 mint $174/
http://cgi.ebay.com/RODE-NTG-2-NTG2...457?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb8ef7881

Used Jucedlink CX211 $107/
http://cgi.ebay.com/Selling-juiced-...124?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a79a29b4

Used Gitzo Boom & shock mount $46.26/
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gitzo-boom-pole...740?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2311794d8c

Total start up cost. $327.
When you sell who knows, you may even make money.

BTW No matter how solid an investment looks, nothing necessarily lasts forever. I thought when I bought a 35mm Arri 10 years ago, I would be using it for the rest of my life. Maybe I still can to anchor my boat.
Click to expand...
 
Well Scottfs, I can't tell if you are joking around or truly bothered by my posts. The ME66 goes for 500.00, only 100.00 less than the NTG-3 - which totally eviscerates the 66 on audio quality. With mics I'm all about stretching out a little more, even when starting out, so you don't have to repurchase later, which cost's more than buying a good mic to begin with. I don't consider my mics top notch by any means. I'd call what I have as "pretty good". My package is nowhere near 10,000.00. I always promote what I think is the best bang for your buck without cheaping out. You only need to buy a good mic once. So I don't let a few hundred dollars hold me back. I just save up longer before I purchase.

Shotgun for outside: NTG-3 600.00
Hyper for inside: AT4053b 500.00
Wireless: Senn G3 600.00
Rode Lav 250.00

1,950.00 if you are recording into a camera

Kick it up a notch with a MixPre-D 750.00
Tascam DR-100 300.00

3,000.00 total

But still one could compromise by getting an NTG-2 for 270.00, a Oktiva for 300.00 ish, skip the Rode Lav and use the ME-2. Then you still have a decent kit for a reasonable price. Honestly, I very rarely even use a shotgun for the work I do, as most stuff I shoot is indoors. I do agree with you that if one isn't sure they want to do this, one shouldn't invest. But on these forums I operate under the assumption that people asking for gear advice actually want to work in this field. If one isn't sure, then they could get an Azden mic, H4N and a T2I and mess around until one knows what they want.

And BTW: http://pacificnwvacations.com/supplier?tourgateSupplier=CABARC----Hotel Arcata
 
Chadfish said:
Well Scottfs, I can't tell if you are joking around or truly bothered by my posts. The ME66 goes for 500.00, only 100.00 less than the NTG-3 - which totally eviscerates the 66 on audio quality.
Click to expand...

I should hope the NTG-3 is better than the K6+ME 66 as, AFAIK, it's basically trying to copy the MKH 416.

But the new MKH 8060 is vastly superior than the 416 (and the later MKH 60) and its ilk and I am surprised how inexpensive it is.
 
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