The Great Divide - Professional and Amateur

For me it all depends on the purpose. There's a difference between a informational company movie about "safety" for indoor use which is shown to the workers, and a movie seen on big screen in 7.1 surround.
Then there's also a difference between movies shown in crappy theaters and "good" theaters....

I also think that you have to balance. If you spend 540640684864646434534343541534053436434 dollar to the "camera department", I don't agree that only 1 cent would be spent to sound department... Then the camera department has also to give something back....
 
Chadfish said:
A good mic(s), good preamp, decent bit bucket with the desire to learn is all one needs to get some great recordings.
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I started out a month ago not knowing jack about audio and still don't. Where will I find the term "bit bucket" in the stickies here? I won't. I read every sticky here, posted here, on indietalk.com, reduser.net, etc., and continue to ask away. As far as stating a budget or what I plan to do I did that and got lots of great help but there is still this insecurity about putting my cash down because of the fact that, as Noiz2 said, "You can't buy a box that will "give you good sound.'"

My stance is the OP's point was very good: the stickies are out of date, the feedback can be overwhelming, and newbies can find themselves in a real spending bind like me: I need to not cheap out because this gear is gonna last me 20 years, but better be sure because I'm up to like $5K, but I don't know my ass from my elbow about what I'm doing so even though I've spent 100s of hours screwing up my audio for years and my technique suck I still better remember that 70% of my show IS audio and that people wll stop watching if it is bad, and even after I bought Barry's DVD and watched Juiced tutorials and on and on and on I still don't know WTF I'm doing. So, I stand by my belief: OP has a lot of good points.

For example: the OPs point about tiers of investment is a good one.

- Newbie analogy I: I didn't know what I was doing and had no budget so i could buy the fastest glass when I started taking pictures. Instead, I bought a piece of **** manual camera and cheap lens. I shot and shot and shot until my technique improved. That crappy camera/lens made images that got onto covers.... Then I went to the next level.... I'm sure there is a similar solution for audio that improves over in-camera audio like OP says.

- Newbie analogy II: I've spent a few hundred hours taping my silly amateur show and doing my own audio with borrowed Sony cam, beachbox, wired and wireless lavs, and wired mic. I need to replace the borrowed gear because of a lack of availability so I am in the market. I am technically not new to using the stuff, but never ever bought any. I what to do a little better than I did before with the borrowed stuff. Can I write a post that delineates every known problem I ever encountered so as to get a shopping list that solves everything? Hell now! My brain is too small. But by having tiers that outline a sensible path for a newbie like me in terms of investing in stages that grows with my abilities, as the OP i think intended, is a great idea.

Isn't that what we're all here for? To learn and help wherever we can?

as is helping us to improve technique or understanding how to use and do what is essentially like an art. The technique is more important equipment doesn't make the sound better is
 
Technique is very important of course. But there is no sense in bying something crappy just because you are inexperienced. There is no need to go for "the best" either unless you nave a need. I would love an 8 track Sound Devices mixer/recorder with timecode, but I can't afford that. But for 800.00 I can afford a Tascam DR-680 8 track, that sounds great, but is more delicate and as less features etc. So you need to state to yourself what you really need. If you don't need timecode, then there is a lot that sounds great and is affordable.

BTW "Bit bucket" is just a nerd slang term for a digital recorder you are feeding with a mixer/preamp. When you use a nice preamp like say a Sound Devices MixPre, you benefit from using it's sweet preamps. You plug the mics into that, then from the MixPre you go into your recorder - be it a Zoom or a Tascam, or totally pro stuff like Sound Devices. Anyway, since you are using the nice pres on the preamp (MixPre) you don't need to use the preamps of the recorder, which may not be as good. Sooooooooo rather than use the recorder as a one stop solution (preamps and recording) you are only using the recorder to catch the audio, hence "bit bucket". Now, technically you are still going through the recorder's pres, but with a nicer mixer/preamp like any Sound Devices stuff, the signal is coming out of that at "Line" level - much hotter than "mic" level. On the recorder when you plug a mic straight into it, you must use the recorder's preamps to boost that signal to an acceptable level. When you send a line level signal out of a preamp, you can set your recorder to "Line" level, which is just turning down the preamps, or better yet switching to a direct recording that bypasses the preamps. Either way the noise you hear when the recorder is amplifying a mic, is turned way down when you use the MixPre, giving you a cleaner signal with little to no noise. Bit bucket good!

I hope that was not too confusing. I've been "relaxing" on this balmy Sunday....

Back to gear quality. The usual suspects here can give you a really nice recording when used correctly. For 300.00 bones you can get the Tascam DR-100, or the Zoom H4N. Both decent, with the Tascam having better pres and more natural sounding limiter. As mentioned in the 800.00 range I like the DR-680, which can be modified to have even cleaner pres than the already nice ones that come stock. 300.00 from Busman Audio will get that. And there are other nicer 2 track recorders in the 600.00 - 2,000.00 range. So I personally don't think the recorder is as important as getting a nice mic, and a nice preamp. With those you don't need the best recorder to get great sound. But if you can afford a great recorder I say go for it. Start with how many tracks you want. For small films and most cooperate stuff 2 channels is good enough. I personally like to do weddings and record live music, so more tracks is important. There are 2, 4 & 8 tracks and more if you need to go crazy with the tracks. The Edirol R-44 is a nice 4 track, but the DR-680 is better sounding and you get 6 preamps, and 2 digital ins = 8 tracks, but really its 6 tracks unless you use a 2 channel mixer like the MixPre-D that has digital output (that looks like an RCA jack that carries either s/pdif or AES digital signal).

Anyway I hope that helps. It's all more simple once you get what you need in your hands and you start using it. The gear in hand will teach you more than reading endless ramblings like mine. Aside from reading stuff here I watch gear demos on youtube to see it in use if there happens to be a video of it.
 
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Pm, great post. Remember, it's all about storytelling. You can tell a story on an iphone camera, with minimal editing gear. Only your creativity stops you.but to reach larger audiences, in a "professional" way, you will appeciate more professional tools. Think about woodworking, having the right tools makes the difference between cutting accurate cuts repeatably. i'venever regretted buying superior tools, and often I've risen to the occasion and become better because of them.sometimes not.

Focus on storytelling, and the gear will show up. If a young filmmaker showed up in my town wanting help, with a great story to tell, I'd volnteer to bring my gear by to help him tell his/her story.

Have fun.
 
I still encourage people that don't know what they are doing in regards to sound, but have money to spend on sound to just hire a sound person that does know what they are doing. It's less headache for you.
 
Very, very interesting debate.

First of all, I'd like to say thanks to everyone for great information and enthusiasm/passion for production. This looks like a cool place to hang and learn a lot from people that really know the field, which is very exciting! Thank you.

I am relatively new (or I should say, new to being serious) to the field of video/film production and sound-for-picture, but not new to sound or audio or recording, as I am a life-long professional musician and producer, who also owns a recording studio. I have also dabbled in video production over the years, but never had any high-end gear to speak of.

These "gear vs. ear" arguments are as old as the Himalayas in professional audio circles (of the non-film variety), and it appears that they are here to stay in the film audio arena as well.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I own a closet full of microphones. Mostly newer, lower level pro/prosumer gear, but some higher-end brands and a few sweet prized vintage pieces. I also proudly own and use a Zoom H1, and a Blue Mikey for iPod, and some cheap Chinese mikes that have so far served me well.

You certainly have more potential for getting better sound with better gear, which in turn costs a lot more money. BUT, if you are creative and take your time, you can also get decent results from less expensive gear, and yes, even the cheese gear is generally an improvement over the on-board mikes on most cameras.

It also depends on what the person is trying to achieve. There is a lot of room for learning and development in the land that is somewhere between the "Flip" cam and high-end professional large format or HD film/video/DSLR cameras, and it's the same with audio. There is definitely something to be said for learning to make due with the _best equipment that you can afford_, versus getting nothing at all because you don't have the money and might not for the foreseeable future. When I was a kid, I had a Panasonic cassette recorder. I've moved on through the years, working with different gear and in different environments, and now own a studio with some decent gear, and have done quite a bit of "professional" production, but we've still got lots of Shure microphones and Mackie and Behringer boards, and not a lot of Neuman and Neve and SSL. It's just not in the budget. A lot of it is in the ears and the hands, and the creative abilities, not necessarily in the gear. I imagine it's the same with film and film audio.

Buy the best that you can afford. Then stop worrying about it, and create some stuff. You'll learn as you go. If you wait until you can afford the perfect kit, you may have a long wait ahead...

GJ
 
indiawilds said:
People should be told/educated about the cost of equipment to record good audio. Unfortunately, there are enough subjective terms used so a newbie won't know. I was told in a forum (which was started 2-3 yrs back) that such and such equipment will give you "pristine" quality. And all I heard was hiss. When a person is new to a forum, one doesn't know whom to trust. I started delving into the world of audio when i got into film making. I was never looking for a "cheap" option. I was looking for the ability to record good audio. Unfortunately, people started giving suggestions about the zooms and DR100 etc. If one doesn't buy professional equipment, then in the long run, you spend more. It is more important to think in terms of value for money, rather than cheap ie low quality.

I was about 3-4 feet distance from two fighting macaques and could record the sound through the internal microphone of the Canon 1D Mark IV. I was surprised that I could use portions of it. Do you think I could have done better if I were recording the sound with the Sound Devices and a short gun? The answer is yes.

If I can buy a Mark IV which costs 5k USD and will last for say 3 yrs before which it is upgraded, then investing in professional recorder which will hopefully last 10yrs and a microphone which lasts for say 20 yrs makes sense. (No idea if I would be alive and kicking after 20 yrs).

May be before offering suggestions, people should ask the seriousness of the poster and the intended use. However, not giving the big picture and just recommending the low end consumer equipment thinking the poster can afford that would be unprofessional.

Also, posters should be reminded that the professionals can squeeze out more juice out of the professional equipment then newbies. So info/tutorials on how to do that would be more important.
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Noiz2 said:
While I do agree with your "buy better" recommendation you also make the mistake in the argument that used to piss off a photographer friend of mine no end.

People would come up to him and ask "your a photographer what camera takes good pictures?". The answer is cameras don't take good pictures photographers do.

The point is that the person using the equipment is more important than the equipment. You can't buy a box that will "give you good sound".

With your "hiss" for instance. Maybe the box was just incredibly noisy, it's certainly possible, but off the bat I would suspect a problem with your gain stages. Even most "cheap" stuff is reasonably hiss free unless you set things wrong. So I think the education isn't so much about buy better as learn how to use sound equipment. It's not brain surgery but it does take time and reading and practicing. Then you need to go out and make as many mistakes as you can so you can get them out of your system before your on a set where $$$ are involved.

I'm not sure how your post is a response to Steve's? I actually disagree with him on this. I think the RVMP is a significant improvement in the quality of sound even if you stick it on the hot shoe. But you can boom the thing and then (the people factor) have the chance at a very big improvement.
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Chadfish said:
I say that "newbies" who want gear buying advice need to state their budget and purpose for their audio recording in the original post. So many people are thinking that 300.00 for a Zoom H4N is a hefty price, so more often than not that is what gets suggested if no budget is mentioned. And one can get a good recording with those little recorders, especially if they use a preamp like a MixPre, which I always suggest for budding sound recordists. A good mic(s), good preamp, decent bit bucket with the desire to learn is all one needs to get some great recordings.
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Three excellent posts and I agree with all of them.

They all make excellent points and it's rare to see three such good posts in a row.
 
Chadfish said:
BTW "Bit bucket" is just a nerd slang term for a digital recorder you are feeding with a mixer/preamp. When you use a nice preamp like say a Sound Devices MixPre, you benefit from using it's sweet preamps. You plug the mics into that, then from the MixPre you go into your recorder - be it a Zoom or a Tascam, or totally pro stuff like Sound Devices. Anyway, since you are using the nice pres on the preamp (MixPre) you don't need to use the preamps of the recorder, which may not be as good. Sooooooooo rather than use the recorder as a one stop solution (preamps and recording) you are only using the recorder to catch the audio, hence "bit bucket".
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You know its interesting because I knew exactly what you were talking about. And I'm 90% certain I have heard the term used in that way before.

But out of curiosity I googled it and it has traditionally referred to the place where you store useless bits of stuff.

So Olindacat, I can see your confusion.
 
davefisk said:
I still encourage people that don't know what they are doing in regards to sound, but have money to spend on sound to just hire a sound person that does know what they are doing. It's less headache for you.
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When you have a budget for personnel on a 'real' production, then you can hire pros until the cows come home. When you do a solo indie thing with all volunteers on a remote island, and are looking at having to pay an audio guy's wage, airfare, rental car, and meals just for a day of shooting, then you need to be out there shooting stuff yourself. If you have any sense of what is going on you realize audio needs a lit of attention. So, like many here, you DIY. You learn, invest, and after a while improve. Will you be a guru like many here? No. But, will you pay back that gear in a year or two? Yes. I sub work out all the time when I can, for profitable things, but much of filmmaking on an indie level is done on spec, on a dream or vision, and there is the law of averages that your first 20+++ efforts will fail. So, to have staying power, you need good gear that'll last, know-how to use it, and then energy to stick with your dream.

I'd love to have the luxury of having a crew at my disposal.
 
Chadfish said:
Anyway I hope that helps. It's all more simple once you get what you need in your hands and you start using it. The gear in hand will teach you more than reading endless ramblings like mine. Aside from reading stuff here I watch gear demos on youtube to see it in use if there happens to be a video of it.
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Sure does. I totally agree with you in that nothing replaces hands-on experience with the gear. I am so think I never 'get it' until I actually do handle it. I have had very cheap gear on loan from our community channel for a couple of years now and because I have never 'bought' my own, I have no reference point, hence my queries.

The way you've broken down options is I think what the OP was trying to suggest. I don't want a SD 702T if I don't need it. What I don't know is if I will. Never having worked with external recorders and video before (the community stuff was mics + beachbox to cam), and am in a whole new league.

Then there is the advice to use a boom for the 'best' results, and to avoid wireless unless absolutely necessary, and what about frequencies? Try being a newbie and seeing block 28 looking cheaper than block 22 on a Lectro....

The whole: you can use a shotgun indoors, sometimes, but is that a hyper or a superhyper? One really great guy on this forum has been helping me but it is still very confusing and when you are talking $1K just for a wireless (used) Lectro kit it is scary for the 'newbie'.....

You've been super in terms of explaining the importance of a pre-amp! I will look at that first, and cut back on the recorder quality.
 
8string said:
Focus on storytelling, and the gear will show up. If a young filmmaker showed up in my town wanting help, with a great story to tell, I'd volnteer to bring my gear by to help him tell his/her story.

Have fun.
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I'm a writer by trade. I tell stories everyday. What I can't do is get the guy who is reciting my lines with a spike in his voice when he laughs to record without it being blown out and sounding terrible. I spent a lot of money to fly cast/crew to an island and wound up with terrible sound and am tossing the whole trip out the window because I focused on the story instead of the sound. Believe me: the sound is crucial for a lot of us who know what we want to say or tell, but have limits we need to overcome in terms of the audio technique and gear. I can't tell you how many times I've read that to cheap out on mics and gear in audio is a BIG no no.....
 
Yup olindacat, that gear is important! And so is getting a mixer/preamp with limiters like the MixPre. With limiters like the sweet ones on SD gear you are virtually unclippable! But if you got clipping on some spikes, you may still be able to save it with IZotope RXII. If it's a big restoration job you could hire me to clean that stuff up for ya...
 
Chadfish said:
Yup olindacat, that gear is important! And so is getting a mixer/preamp with limiters like the MixPre. With limiters like the sweet ones on SD gear you are virtually unclippable! But if you got clipping on some spikes, you may still be able to save it with IZotope RXII. If it's a big restoration job you could hire me to clean that stuff up for ya...
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If Maui is where this poster is shooting, one of my first efforts to capture the Wife during a seminar 'field' trip was on Maui. The 'wind' noise was atrocious, but at that time I was just doing one step up from 'home movies', just to see how to shoot the Wife during the seminar.

As a note... there's just something about doing video work for a spouse that just leads to problem with 'noise'... I don't think there's a 'cleaner' for it though...
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
If Maui is where this poster is shooting, one of my first efforts to capture the Wife during a seminar 'field' trip was on Maui. The 'wind' noise was atrocious, but at that time I was just doing one step up from 'home movies', just to see how to shoot the Wife during the seminar.

As a note... there's just something about doing video work for a spouse that just leads to problem with 'noise'... I don't think there's a 'cleaner' for it though...
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I have that problem everyday. ;-) I'm on Maui, and the wind is really strong, and I'm taping dialogue outdoors on a golf course when it is hurling! I go from indoor tight tiny offices with no curtains or carpet to massive wide-open fairways with gale force winds, and I'm often doing both within an our of each other, so I'm often shell shocked when I move from place-to-place....
 
Chadfish said:
Yup olindacat, that gear is important! And so is getting a mixer/preamp with limiters like the MixPre. With limiters like the sweet ones on SD gear you are virtually unclippable! But if you got clipping on some spikes, you may still be able to save it with IZotope RXII. If it's a big restoration job you could hire me to clean that stuff up for ya...
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Not sure if your fee would be low enough, Chadfish. I am very lo-budget dude :-)
 
olindacat said:
Not sure if your fee would be low enough, Chadfish. I am very lo-budget dude :-)
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Well that all depends on how bad the audio is, and how much there is to fix. And if it's cheaper than doing a re-shoot it's worth it. If you PM me the specifics I could give you an idea. I can be reasonable on price.
 
Chadfish said:
Well that all depends on how bad the audio is, and how much there is to fix. And if it's cheaper than doing a re-shoot it's worth it. If you PM me the specifics I could give you an idea. I can be reasonable on price.
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It's just footage for a community golf show that is quickly becoming stale and will probably be re-shot. I've actually got someone locally who deserves any work I outsource because he's been super helpful juz like you. I'll PM if things can't be worked out just so we have that connection....
 
Noiz2 said:
The point is that the person using the equipment is more important than the equipment. You can't buy a box that will "give you good sound".
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I agree with you that the IQ of the person behind the equipment is as important (if not more) than the IQ of the equipment. That is why I had mentioned in my post that professionals can squeeze out more juice out of the professional equipment.
 
indiawilds said:
I agree with you that the IQ of the person behind the equipment is as important (if not more) than the IQ of the equipment. That is why I had mentioned in my post that professionals can squeeze out more juice out of the professional equipment.
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Well I'm not sure I would tie it ti IQ. There are plenty of smart people who are clueless about sound. And I wasn't really talking about "squeezing out" better sound. A BAD sound person can leave you with nothing and it really doesn't matter how good the equipment was. High quality garbage is still garbage.

People can save you equipment can't.
 
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