The Great Divide - Professional and Amateur

[Noiz2]

it kind of goes without saying that all accessories will
Be needed. I just meant skipping the mixer (according to
Chadfish minimum needs).

You would be surprised what you would think goes with out saying, that ends up needing to have been said. It's kind of where this thread started. Some folks need to get told things that are obvious to others and it's sometimes hard to tell who falls in which camp.

RE: Chadfish's explanation. This is where you have to really look at your needs and future. You can skip the mixer and go to a higher end recorder and pretty much end up in the same place. Somewhere in this mix you need to find out what balance works for you. Personally I like the mixer and recorder separate. I like the flexibility.

 

[Chadfish]

And I will add that I only use a mixer on dialogue shoots, and not always. I shoot with a Sony EX1, which has great audio and quiet preamps. I often attach a G3 wireless with a Rode Lav or COS11D lav directly to the camera and get great results. But I am often working in very controlled situations. The person is doing a quick "on-cam" standing in one place. The mixer comes out when the audio is for film dialogue. When the actor is going through various intensity levels and emotions, and basically the situation is more dynamic. The Mixer is Essential IMO. If I am recording music, I plug the mics straight into my modified DR-680, as I actually like the sound of my studio mics better without the MixPre. The thing with recorders like the DR-100 and H4N, they are really consumery, and you will hear the noise level fluctuate if you are constantly changing the recording level. Put it this way, if you need to change the level of the mic throughout the shoot, a mixer/preamp is needed. If you can set it and forget it, a recorder alone should work. You can't have any hard and fast rules for this stuff because things constantly change. My advice: Be prepared. Buy a mixer when you can. I have a new audio bag that I bought after I did a job with one that was too small. I have not used the audio bag yet, but when I need it I"ll already have it, and I'll make my money back.

You should make a list of all the tools one needs and just buy the tools as you can even if the need is not there at that moment. If you are really "in the game" you WILL need it eventually.

For the game we're taking about here I think (aside from cables and small stuff needed to make it all work smoothly):

• Shotgun Mic
• Hyper Mic
• Lav mic (both wireless and wired)
• Mixer/Preamp (something active to add gain, not passive like a beachtek)
• External recorder
• Cans

That's really not a big list for the tools of someone earning a living. Even a hobbyist can get this stuff for a reasonable price. I by all means do not have the top of the line gear, and my stuff sounds great IMHO.

Here's my pricelist:
• Shotgun Mic NTG-3 700.00
• Blimp Rode 300.00
• Hyper Mic AT4053b 430.00
• Lav mic (both wireless and wired) Rode lav 250.00 + XLR adapter 30.00
• Mixer/Preamp SD MixPre 665.00
• External recorder DR-680 800.00
• Cans HD 25-1 II 200.00 (or good old Sony7506 got 80.00 at B&H)

Total 3,375.00

I consider that a great setup for the money. You can save money with a 2 ch recorder, juicedLink mixer, NTG-2 shotgun, and a furry rather than a blimp. But really 3,375.00 to basically have all you need to earn 400.00 a day as a boom op is not too shabby. How much does a car mechanic spend on tools? I recently did a PBS doc gig that was 2 days. There was a couple hours overtime each day + 90 miles mileage. I got 1,200.00 and purchased my DR-680 with the money. I got the gig because I had the gear. Of course I know how to use it! But having the gear got me the job because there are no places to rent here, and nobody else has the gear.

OK I'm rambling here. I just think the reason these guys are trying to hear a reason NOT to get all the gear they should have it because it costs money. But if you can see that the cost is not really that high in the big picture, you can set small goals and get the stuff over time. Once you buy a good piece of kit, you don't have to buy it again.


UPDATE: Oops! I forgot the wireless kit - Senn G3 for 600.00 and it comes with a free lav.

 

[roei z]

thanks for all the info. Priceless.

 

[Breezer]

Hey Chadfish (and others), regarding mics, I'm looking for one that I can use mainly inside (boomed mic) ... I really like the sound of the OktavaMK012 Cardioid sample found here.. http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html#Oktava%20MK-012 That mic also comes with a hypercardioid capsule... Would that be a good mic to pick up? I read its very sensitive to even air ventilation inside, would a dead cat be a solution? Also, any opinion on the
AT3031 - Audio-Technica Cardioid mic? This is going to be used with a juicedlink cx231 and T2i...

Thanks

 

[Steve House]

Hey Chadfish (and others), regarding mics, I'm looking for one that I can use mainly inside (boomed mic) ... I really like the sound of the OktavaMK012 Cardioid sample found here.. http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/right_mic_brockett.html#Oktava%20MK-012 That mic also comes with a hypercardioid capsule... Would that be a good mic to pick up? I read its very sensitive to even air ventilation inside, would a dead cat be a solution? Also, any opinion on the
AT3031 - Audio-Technica Cardioid mic? This is going to be used with a juicedlink cx231 and T2i...

Thanks

A cardioid has too wide a pattern to use as a boomed mic for dialog, IMHO. Most of the time the tighter pattern and increased working distance of the hypercardioid would be prefered.

 

[Noiz2]

THe Oktava is a very good mic but like Schoeps is very sensitive to wind. You need to have wind protection on pretty much all the time. I don't use protection for concert recordings but any time the mic might move or get a breeze I always have some on.

It also really wants a solid 48V phantom supply.

 

[Chadfish]

My go-to mic for indoor dialogue is the AT4053b. It is IMO a better all around mic than the Oktava, and is less susceptible to handling noise. And putting a deadcat on a mic does nothing to reduce noise caused by an air conditioner running in the background. A furry like that is only good to reduce the sound caused by a breeze hitting the mic and causing wind rumble.

 

[Soundie76]

Go the Rode NTG-3 or the AT4035b. Both are reasonably priced, and can also be used for outdoors with a proper wind jamming system.

 

[Chadfish]

Let's be clear, a Shotgun (NTG-3) mic's primary use is outside, and a hypercardioid (AT4053b) is best used inside. There is loads of info on why that is the case here if you search a little. If you plan on using the mic indoors primarily, get a hyper. SHotguns are for outdoor use, though in well treated rooms they will be OK to use, but they aren't a good first choice. Anyone, as a sound person, needs both.

 

[dre83]

yes and no... I often use a shotgun inside and it sounds good... But you have to record also "roomtone" (sound of the room) and you have to be more accurate when booming...

Shotgun outside I agree totaly... But one can use a shotgun inside also...when taking care...

I mean it in a way like when you're doing a very very very very lo-budget (1 dollar) I'm not going to buy a hypermic of 1000$ to use it for free....

 

[Chadfish]

If you could only have one mic (shotgun or hyper), I would get the NTG-3. If you plan on working indoors a lot it's best just to save anf get both for about 1,150.00 you can have both as the AT4053b is about 430.00 at B&H.

 

[Soundie76]

I think most people have to realize that the gap between purchasing a Professional Camera(PD 800XDHD Cam) and something that is more that a quarter of the price(Canon 5D) that you can still give very lovely pictures at a reasonable price, has opened the world of film making to a lot more people. The same can be said with Non-Linear Editing becoming cheaper.
Sound or the other hand, is slowly bridging the gap between professional sound and consumer sound with Manufacturers like Rode, Zoom, Edirol and even Sound Devices starting to offer semi pro/pro products.
I agree with Chadfish on his ideas for purchasing a reasonably priced sound kit for approx 3k, and this could be even cheaper with bought 2nd hand.
My 1st Sound Kit, and yes I'm a professional with over 15 years experience, cost over $25000 dollars new. This was a 4 channel mixer, 2 Lectrosonic Rads and a 416. I have since upgraded my kit, for less the half the price, 12 years later. And bought even more gear for less than my initial purchase.
My tip for the people is to keep and eye out for 2nd hand semi/professional gear, and be prepared to spend a little more than anticipated to get reasonable audio. You may be surprised at the difference it will make.

Regards

 

[Breezer]

Go the Rode NTG-3 or the AT4035b. Both are reasonably priced, and can also be used for outdoors with a proper wind jamming system.

do you mean AT4053b? Couldnt find AT4035b on Google...


Chad, regarding your youtube video.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j8wOuLQyJo I dont know the technical term but the sound is very "stereo", radio host like compare to this ad for exemple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdRLYqP7ZoM where the sound blends better with the image, as if the mic was further away... less boomy I guess... Is that done in post processing?


Also Chad, I find the ntg-2 sounds VERY similar to ntg-3 aside from when you hit the higher notes with your voice... And all 4 mics performed similarly well in your test.. But from what I understand, in a different environment with a boom that is not fixed, this is where we will see a big difference between the hypercardioid and the shotgun mics ?

 

[Chadfish]

The proper name for the hyper is "AT4053b"

As for my video, I think mine has more room sound. "Stereo" is not the right term. I can hear the sound reflecting off the hard surfaces, so I say it sounds "reverberant" rather than "Dry" which is what a radio host likes. The woman in the ad sounded like she was in a smaller space, with her voice reflecting off the closer surfaces like the fridge, counter etc. Also on my YouTube version of the video - youtube pretty much ruins whatever sound is happening. It's hard to judge, so take a listen to my Vimeo version. You may hear more differences.

Note: You can embed videos by clicking the "Insert Video" icon above the area you type in, 2nd from the right, then pasting the URL in.

I hear a definite difference between all the mics. If all you have are little PC speakers, try good headphones. I think the NTG-3 is a little more clear sounding.

And as for a mic on a moving boom inside: That's when you may run into the reason shotguns aren't recommended for indoor work. It's when sound reflects off the walls and hits those slits on the side of the shotgun that you may bet a hollow "out of phase" sound. If you are working in a room with carpet, or big furniture with book shelves and curtains, you will probably be good to go.

 

[johnnyevil]

Based on Chad's recommendation, I checked out the NTG-3 and the AT4053b. After listening to several comparisons, and listening to them versus others mics, I felt they were excellent. I bought both. Though, because it's winter here in the Northeast, I've used the AT4053b a bit more. I think it sounds fantastic. Last mic I picked up for my initial kit was the Electrovoice RE50 (wanted that for certain gags my friends and I shoot).

Still need to add some lavs and a wireless setup.

But I will agree with everyone that says don't cheap out just because you're starting out.

My total initial expenditures are less then 1k for the camera and lenses, and about 2500 so far for audio gear. I think this is money well spent.

 

[Soundie76]

Also remember,

Good pictures with bad sound looses peoples attention. Bad pictures with good sound means and people will more than likely live with it.

 

[Noiz2]

As a post person I pretty much disagree with this.

Room tone is not going to help with the major problem with many shotguns used indoors and that is the excessive hollow echoey sound that is all too common in low budget films.

However $1 budget? That's not low budget thats a student film or a hobby. If your just goofing around then yes use what ever you have and have a good time.

If your trying to produce something that in theory people would be willing to pay to watch then you need to pay attention to things like this.

THe other YMMV point is that some shotguns are not so prone to the indoor echo issue and some rooms also don't promote the problem. So it is entirely possible to shoot indoors with a shotgun and have it sound fine. It's more of an exception than a rule so you better have an alternative mic handy incase.

yes and no... I often use a shotgun inside and it sounds good... But you have to record also "roomtone" (sound of the room) and you have to be more accurate when booming...

Shotgun outside I agree totaly... But one can use a shotgun inside also...when taking care...

I mean it in a way like when you're doing a very very very very lo-budget (1 dollar) I'm not going to buy a hypermic of 1000$ to use it for free....

 

[indiawilds]

People should be told/educated about the cost of equipment to record good audio. Unfortunately, there are enough subjective terms used so a newbie won't know. I was told in a forum (which was started 2-3 yrs back) that such and such equipment will give you "pristine" quality. And all I heard was hiss. When a person is new to a forum, one doesn't know whom to trust. I started delving into the world of audio when i got into film making. I was never looking for a "cheap" option. I was looking for the ability to record good audio. Unfortunately, people started giving suggestions about the zooms and DR100 etc. If one doesn't buy professional equipment, then in the long run, you spend more. It is more important to think in terms of value for money, rather than cheap ie low quality.

I was about 3-4 feet distance from two fighting macaques and could record the sound through the internal microphone of the Canon 1D Mark IV. I was surprised that I could use portions of it. Do you think I could have done better if I were recording the sound with the Sound Devices and a short gun? The answer is yes.

If I can buy a Mark IV which costs 5k USD and will last for say 3 yrs before which it is upgraded, then investing in professional recorder which will hopefully last 10yrs and a microphone which lasts for say 20 yrs makes sense. (No idea if I would be alive and kicking after 20 yrs).

May be before offering suggestions, people should ask the seriousness of the poster and the intended use. However, not giving the big picture and just recommending the low end consumer equipment thinking the poster can afford that would be unprofessional.

Also, posters should be reminded that the professionals can squeeze out more juice out of the professional equipment then newbies. So info/tutorials on how to do that would be more important.

I'm sorry, but IMHO a Zoom H1 with a Rode Videomic plugged into it is not going to give a sufficient improvment over most built-in camera mics to be worth spending any money on it at all. Sure it might be slightly better sounding, but is it better sounding ENOUGH to justify spending a couple of hundred dollars on it? I don't think so. And we still haven't spent any money doing what is more important to good sound ... getting the mic away from the shooting position and up close and intimate with the talent. It's not enough to be DIFFERENT from one's existing tools .... the result must be signifigantly BETTER than that obtainable with one's existing tools. IMHO, as a general rule of thumb for upgrades, one needs to at least double one's current level of quality to justify doing the upgrade at all.

 

[Noiz2]

While I do agree with your "buy better" recommendation you also make the mistake in the argument that used to piss off a photographer friend of mine no end.

People would come up to him and ask "your a photographer what camera takes good pictures?". The answer is cameras don't take good pictures photographers do.

The point is that the person using the equipment is more important than the equipment. You can't buy a box that will "give you good sound".

With your "hiss" for instance. Maybe the box was just incredibly noisy, it's certainly possible, but off the bat I would suspect a problem with your gain stages. Even most "cheap" stuff is reasonably hiss free unless you set things wrong. So I think the education isn't so much about buy better as learn how to use sound equipment. It's not brain surgery but it does take time and reading and practicing. Then you need to go out and make as many mistakes as you can so you can get them out of your system before your on a set where $$$ are involved.

I'm not sure how your post is a response to Steve's? I actually disagree with him on this. I think the RVMP is a significant improvement in the quality of sound even if you stick it on the hot shoe. But you can boom the thing and then (the people factor) have the chance at a very big improvement.

People should be told/educated about the cost of equipment to record good audio. Unfortunately, there are enough subjective terms used so a newbie won't know. I was told in a forum (which was started 2-3 yrs back) that such and such equipment will give you "pristine" quality. And all I heard was hiss. When a person is new to a forum, one doesn't know whom to trust. I started delving into the world of audio when i got into film making. I was never looking for a "cheap" option. I was looking for the ability to record good audio. Unfortunately, people started giving suggestions about the zooms and DR100 etc. If one doesn't buy professional equipment, then in the long run, you spend more. It is more important to think in terms of value for money, rather than cheap ie low quality.

I was about 3-4 feet distance from two fighting macaques and could record the sound through the internal microphone of the Canon 1D Mark IV. I was surprised that I could use portions of it. Do you think I could have done better if I were recording the sound with the Sound Devices and a short gun? The answer is yes.

If I can buy a Mark IV which costs 5k USD and will last for say 3 yrs before which it is upgraded, then investing in professional recorder which will hopefully last 10yrs and a microphone which lasts for say 20 yrs makes sense. (No idea if I would be alive and kicking after 20 yrs).

May be before offering suggestions, people should ask the seriousness of the poster and the intended use. However, not giving the big picture and just recommending the low end consumer equipment thinking the poster can afford that would be unprofessional.

Also, posters should be reminded that the professionals can squeeze out more juice out of the professional equipment then newbies. So info/tutorials on how to do that would be more important.

 

[Chadfish]

I say that "newbies" who want gear buying advice need to state their budget and purpose for their audio recording in the original post. So many people are thinking that 300.00 for a Zoom H4N is a hefty price, so more often than not that is what gets suggested if no budget is mentioned. And one can get a good recording with those little recorders, especially if they use a preamp like a MixPre, which I always suggest for budding sound recordists. A good mic(s), good preamp, decent bit bucket with the desire to learn is all one needs to get some great recordings.