The Future-End of flame wars:3 different cameras on the same shoot (5d, 600D, HX9)

H

HHL

Veteran
I'm so relieved that the flame wars are almost over. NOT because anyone has thrown in the towel....but because the quality of imaging between cameras is sooooo close that you can hardly tell the difference (if at all) with online video.

The future? The human eye cannot tell the difference between a $30,000 camera a $3,000 camera, and a $300 camera:

BEHOLD: (The Canon 5d MarkII, Canon 600D, and Sony HX9) Notice that they all get along just fine and although I'm pretty sure I know (SOMETIMES) which is which, it was hard to BOTHER TRYING. I got distracted by the DANG STORY and forgot to look. I did see some HX9 jutter in there, but not so much that it changed my perspective on the story. A $350 camera ON A PROFESSIONAL SHOOT in 2011!!!! What will we have in 2015? 2020? The flame wars are almost over (I give them 5 years MAX).

ps....I'm not saying some a-holes won't try...but it's less and less legitimate by the day. It's like....shoot with what'cha got. I've seen great stuff from all sorts of cams. GET OVER IT!

 
Another example:

BEHOLD: The Panasonic AF100 and the Sony FS100. Although it ***MAY*** be possible to tell the difference on some MICROSCOPIC level (I know this is heavily debated) I dare who ***CAN*** see the difference to get a "commoner" to look at the video and try to ~explain~ to them the difference. FYI....you're going to look like an idiot, I promise. I know because I've tried....I showed my wife the difference between the Hacked GH1 and the GH2....uh....ya.....the more you try to emphasize the IQ differences, the more you realize that you just need to let this go and get out there and shoot with what you have.

BTW peeps who are SWEARING that the difference is SIGNIFICANT: How close will these cam lines be in 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? (Take a look at the DSLR PHOTO curve if you'd like to see what that's going to look like)

I remember the bloody wars over NLEs. How hot is that war now? YES, some (unnamed) companies have dropped the ball and removed CRITICAL functionalities....but now noone cares and just chooses the NLE that has the functionality that they need, instead of worrying about how they are going to "cover up" the tatoo they got in TiJuana that says, "NETSCAPE FOREVER!!!"

Browser wars, NLE wars, Flat screen wars, hardware wars, video card wars....they're slipping away because the differences are inperceptible for:

-the average person first
-the exceptional user next
-...and finally, even the VERY WELL TRAINED EYE. (Anyone care to try to tell what digital camera brand a PHOTO was shot with by ONLY looking at the picture???)

We are close to the end. I'm excited for the future! (Thanks for the great video BTW Barry Green!)

 
I dont know but first is nothing special its not even DP'd properly and lit, kinda random.Second vid is better, light and cam movement is there.Its man behind the camera that makes a difference, it might sound cliche but it really is when cameras are "almost" non distinguishable when recording lens to lens.Lighting makes the difference and most DP's can tell if DP was lazy or didnt cared about the shoot by watching a couple of secs and random footages like first one dont really tell anything, its not quality pic that you can judge IMO.*
*About camera wars, i think people who dont own 5d and RED are the ones who post these moronic threads "RED killer" and "5D killer".So they feel good by igniting fire and WOW they probably feel like:
3ybi9.jpg


WINNING!!
 
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LOL!

It is just like the old NLE nonsense. It's a COMPLETE non-issue. Cameras aren't *quite* there yet. But we're very close. I many situations, we are there...(in fact most), and I certainly agree that a good DP with ANY cam is better than a bonehead with THE BEST cam. Looking at HX9 footy is REALLY telling on this matter. Your typical idiot (search youtube) shoots pure garbage footy with this cam, and then there's this guy:


I'm sure some may say that it's not the greatest video ever. True, but compare it to a typical HX9 video on YouTube and it is a STARK reality that the person behind the camera is more important than the camera its self.
 
bwwd said:
looks like random vid with blurred sides to me
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Very true! You may not realize what a compliment that is. You DIDN'T say it looks like it was shot on a cheap compact camera
with subpar quality. It's kinda like the Red Camera crowd when they look at GH2 footy. They say, "MEH....what's so great about that?" Of course they leave out the fact that it's 1/20th the cost of their setup and about 1/10th the weight/size. So to be 80% (or better) the final image quality (in the right hands in the right situation). So...at 1/3rd the cost of the GH2 and 1/3rd the size, the HX9 is looking pretty good. (Not to mention that it shoots 1080/60P when the GH2 only does 720/60P) lol

The point is that sub 1K cams are being used with "cinema cameras" and the footy is inter cutting JUST FINE.

Does anyone care to flame this video and the GH1 shots in it? (And if you do, just remember that in less than 5 years you won't be able to tell the difference AT ALL.) PS....you might not be able to tell the difference on this video! lol

BEHOLD: The GH1 and the Weisscam HS2. (Maybe this is a better example for you bwwd?) :)

 
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Actually the one with branches and cow did looked like random vid on random camera and i wouldnt be surprised if it was cellphone cam.
The one you posted above with babies looks decent.I dont think it is "RED people", it depends, some guys have obsession about cams and some care how final footage looks like, im somewhere in the middle cause i know what to expect from some cameras.I do care about camera choice if its miniDV vs big sensor cam but i dont care that much if its 5D or GHX or RED cause i doubt my stuff will hit cinemas anytime soon, but i wouldnt want to use early Nikons for video and cameras without manual settings.
But this is just a tool, its up to human to frame and light the scene.

*****Now this is important -*Ive seen bad footage shot on film and shot on RED but most of overall RED and film footage - big percent of it looks good and bad footage is only small percent but with DSLR's bad looking footage is actually majority on vimeo, there is like 85% of ugly DSLR random vids and rest is something decent.Its because people can buy tools cheaper ( nobody 4 years ago imagined that we would have video cameras with 35mm motion picture film sized sensor and 24fps *for such price ) but they dont have knowledge how to use them properly, they run around on wides like with camcorders or 50mm's without stabilization and they think that having camera is all they need to produce this "cinematic film look".
 
Are you going to post any of your own footage shot with the HX9V? I would love to see something from you other than this stellar example of cinematography that you posted a while back

http://youtu.be/sjTPrexmjxA
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*blush*

Heh. I don't think my footy is up to many folks "standards" on this site. (bwwd certainly seems to have standards that are higher than I can achieve....based on his/her response to the HS2/GH1 video above....I CERTAINLY thought that was stellar video)

That said, yes, I will post more HX9 video I PROMISE. (Whether some call it "random" or not) I've just been busy with my two jobs, and I've been working on the FAUX PRO when I have had any extra time. Sincerely colormate, I appreciate the compliment. Can you imagine how much fun it's going to be for me when I'm lugging the NEX5N around with me everywhere I go (along with my HX9)? Just 5 years ago DPs would have given their left arm for that sort of setup for under 10K!!! Now it's almost under 1K!!!!

The Clone Wars are almost over Master Jedi.....(oops wrong universe)

Ahem. The Flame Wars are almost over Master DP....soon arguments over what cam you shoot video will seem as silly as what DSLR you use to shoot photos. Mark my words....in less than 5 years, the flame wars will be over.
 
Actually the one with branches and cow did looked like random vid on random camera and i wouldnt be surprised if it was cellphone cam.
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Hey bwwd. What you are REALLY saying here, is that you haven't shot much video on *either* a compact camera *or* a cellphone cam. If you know of either from ANY brand that will better IQ than the HX9....PLEASE post footy and the camera brand/model name.

HONESTLY, we would all LOVE to see something beat the HX9. I CANNOT WAIT for something to BEAT the HX9. I can't wait until IT BECOMES the middle of the pack. I have yet to find any compact or cell that comes close at this stage. Let me know what you find.
 
HHL said:
Does anyone care to flame this video and the GH1 shots in it? (And if you do, just remember that in less than 5 years you won't be able to tell the difference AT ALL.) PS....you might not be able to tell the difference on this video! lol

BEHOLD: The GH1 and the Weisscam HS2. (Maybe this is a better example for you bwwd?) :)

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Well, maybe the babies look a bit too big and healthy to be in incubators ;-)
 
HHL said:
HONESTLY, we would all LOVE to see something beat the HX9. I CANNOT WAIT for something to BEAT the HX9. I can't wait until IT BECOMES the middle of the pack.
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Honestly, a camera with no manual shutter speed control in video mode is not really IN the pack. Just sayin' ...
 
GrahamH said:
Honestly, a camera with no manual shutter speed control in video mode is not really IN the pack. Just sayin' ...
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What pack GrahamH? I'm talking about the PocketCinematography compact camera pack. Truly it will be better when it has manual control on shutter. (ISO and aperture will be great too....but with a sensor that small it really doesn't help that much, I own the LX5 and it really doesn't help) But as it is....1080/60P is more than ANY DSLR up til now (Sony is about that change that....but what about the others?)

So....seeing as the HX9 is the "King of the Hill" for compact camera video. When it is the middle of the pack, life will be even better! Sorry I didn't clarify that GrahamH.

Please note that there are already some peeps who have the 5d Mark II who DON'T HAVE 60P AT ALL....who are buying the HX9 to add slo-mo to their options (for 350usd BTW, less than a new lens for the 5d).

AGAIN, that is the point of this thread: people are using VARIOUS cams during a shoot to get the best OUTCOME, and just setting aside the fact that they are "just" shooting with the GH1 as a B-cam, or a HX9 as a B-cam, or a T2i as a B-cam, or a F3 as a B-cam. And what happened to those silly flame wars?

Just curious GrahamH: (honest question here) What do you use to shoot 1080/60P (if any)? What do you use to mount to a Steadicam (if any)? (Any answer is just fine....just wondering)
 
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honestly theres a lot to like on this little camera. Ive been using ex1, gh2, hmc 150, 5d and 60d and still find this hx9 to be very usefull in my production.
 
honestly theres a lot to like on this little camera. Ive been using ex1, gh2, hmc 150, 5d and 60d and still find this hx9 to be very usefull in my production.
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Thanks for sharing MTS. That REALLY is the point of this thread. The future of visual story telling is: WHO CARES what camera(s) I'm using???!!!! People can't tell the difference ***ANYWAY*** !!!!!! (If the HX9 gives me what I need, USE IT....if the NEX5N gives me what I need, USE IT....If the F3 gives me what I need -instead of the ALEXA-, USE IT)

I know that there are MANY OTHER examples! (I know that the HX9 does NOT have the corner on the market for video...)
 
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It is very true. Especially on the AF100/FS100 video comparison. Both shots look great. 99% of the people looking at it wouldn't even know it was two different cameras.
 
Rick Burnett said:
It is very true. Especially on the AF100/FS100 video comparison. Both shots look great. 99% of the people looking at it wouldn't even know it was two different cameras.
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Yes - and this is lost when the debates roll on (an on) :)

In another thread I mentioned a 5% difference on AF100/FS100 - that's personal opinion, but (as you say) 99% of people really can't tell the difference. Pixel peeping has gone a little crazy over the last 9 months I think... the reality is we have access to great (and cheap!) cameras that allow for outstanding results in the right hands... and that's the bottom line.

On Barry's test, if that sequence was shot as a wide 2 and a couple of singles on the talent (med and CU or even a BCU) and the wide was one camera and the singles were another, I ascertain, if edited together and graded, that it would be very hard to tell the difference... but maybe I'm just mad.
 
MadMonkFish said:
Yes - and this is lost when the debates roll on (an on) :)

In another thread I mentioned a 5% difference on AF100/FS100 - that's personal opinion, but (as you say) 99% of people really can't tell the difference. Pixel peeping has gone a little crazy over the last 9 months I think... the reality is we have access to great (and cheap!) cameras that allow for outstanding results in the right hands... and that's the bottom line.

On Barry's test, if that sequence was shot as a wide 2 and a couple of singles on the talent (med and CU or even a BCU) and the wide was one camera and the singles were another, I ascertain, if edited together and graded, that it would be very hard to tell the difference... but maybe I'm just mad.
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You're not mad....and I AM CERTAIN that the future holds a time when any reasonable person won't waste their time "fighting" for "their camera".

I know I keep repeating it, but can you imagine a photog "fighting" for their cam?

"NO WAY!!! The reason my work is so great is because I shoot with the D700, ....anyone who shoots with the 5d is JUST DUMB!!!"

I'm not saying that idiots like this don't exist.....I am saying that no-one heeds a word they say anymore. You find a cam that suits you...and you shoot with it. THE INVESTMENT IN GLASS makes more of a difference than anything else, ....but even arguments about that are PLAIN SILLY. Great photo work is the result of great photographers and subject matters. Great cinema is the result of great storytelling and compelling imaging (in that order BTW).

A bright day follows the moment we let the flame wars go. In that world, content and skill are all that we worry about my friends. No more fidgeting over "me and my FS100 are better than you and your AF100".....or "You and your GH2 can't POSSIBLY keep up with me and my 5d". Heh....I'm sure we'll all have a giggle in a few years. (Some of us will right now.) :)

It is very true. Especially on the AF100/FS100 video comparison. Both shots look great. 99% of the people looking at it wouldn't even know it was two different cameras.
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Ahhhhh....music to my ears. The sound of logic, sanity, and truth. "Mine is bigger than yours" is getting WAY OLD. Thanks for chiming in Rick.
 
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