The Difference between Blackmagic and Canon/Nikon/Panasonic

[combatentropy]

It seems to me that your message, Gillvane, is: People's main motivation is to make as much money as possible. Anyone claiming otherwise is lying, or at best deluded and destined for bankruptcy. This is pure cynicism, and you're entitled to it, but that's one thing I ain't buying.

Don't get me wrong. There are many, many examples of men and companies trying to get the most money from buyers for the least effort into their products. Examples: Microsoft and Canon.

But there are also some people and companies that claim to have, and seem to follow through on, a desire to make a good product for a fair price. Examples: Blackmagic Design, IKEA, Apple, Digital Bolex. There are even people and organizations who give stuff away for free that they could charge for. Examples: Google, Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds, the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, the Peace Corps, etc., etc.

And the argument that only those trying to get into a new market will say things like that, as some sort of trick, doesn't hold water. For example, this quote by Steve Jobs, after he was already a multibillionaire and Apple had reattained ascendency: "My passion has been to build an enduring company where people were motivated to make great products . . . the products, not the profits, were the motivation. Sculley flipped these priorities to where the goal was to make money. It's a subtle difference, but it ends up meaning everything."

The idea that you have to work at a nonprofit to have any motivation but money is what I call black-and-white thinking. And while some say that publicly traded companies must be that way, that's not true either. For example, a public company can't dump toxic waste into a lake, even if it would raise profits. A public company only motivation is not money. Even if that's legal, it's not ethical, and it still doesn't change the fact that at least some of the people in a company have other desires.

 

[Shenan]

Right, contrary to popular belief, there is no legal obligation for corporations (in the US at least) to maximize profits for shareholders to the exclusion of all else (environment, community, employees, vendors, customers, etc). Read up on "shareholder capitalism" and "stakeholder capitalism" for more on this topic. Consequently, the management of different corps will have different ideas of how they should balance all those things, and therefore some of them will actually and accurately show themselves as more greedy than others.

That being said though, I don't think that's really the reason why companies like Sony, Canon, Panasonic, et al hold back on making awesome cameras at super low prices. First, it's a well-understood fact that large companies are not (and cannot be?) as nimble as smaller ones. Second, those large companies have more at stake than smaller companies like Blackmagic. Sony, for instance, has almost 150,000 employees vs. Blackmagic's 350. They can't just tear apart their existing businesses and product lines all of a sudden. "Sorry, we have to lay off 50,000 people because we want to give away all the features of our higher products lines for the lowest prices" wouldn't go over very well.

It seems to me that this market is working just as it should, with smaller nimbler companies like first Red, and then Blackmagic now putting even more downward pressure on prices than already existed just from the competition among the large companies themselves. They will respond how they can in time - just look at the GH4k rumors. Besides, how much more would the Blackmagic cameras cost if they had OLPFs, better focusing tolerances, better quality control, better screens, etc? Probably quite a bit more. Those are just some of the common complaints I hear about them, and that's not to put them down but instead to illustrate that different companies focus on and balance different features for different prices.

In short, it seems like Blackmagic's CEO is engaging in a bit of hyperbole, perhaps to benefit his company.

 

[Mark Williams]

I don't think Canon, Panasonic and Sony are "holding back" at all. The cameras of today are awesome compared to 5, 10 or twenty years ago. I don't place much merit on the "I got to have it now" attitude. My only complaint about the big 3 is that IMO Panasonic customer service stinks and that is what they need to focus on to encourage customer loyalty. The technology will evolve and trickle down to the consumers at whatever pace the corporations decide is profit productive. Trickle down too slow and their competitors or a small niche company will pickup the slack as Black Magic, Red and Gopro have done.

 

[Barry_Green]

Kind of funny. People complain about the pace of technology, and how the evil Japanese conglomerates are "holding you back".

This is the 10th anniversary of DVXUser. Which means that just 10 years ago, we were using standard-def 60i cameras. 10 years, people. 10 years ago we were using PD150s, in standard-def, 4x3, in 60i only, with maybe six or seven stops of dynamic range and unholy amounts of noise when the gain was turned on, with terrible noisy raspy audio and fixed lenses, recording 4:1:1 color, on a crinkly ratty tape that was prone to dropouts, and that had a maximum of 40 minutes of battery life. And we paid $5,000 for it. And thought we were getting a steal. We had digital component video in our hands, delivering Betacam-class imagery, for under $5,000. It was a breakthrough.

But that was state of the art, just 10 years ago.

In the last 10 years, those evil Japanese conglomerates that strive to hold us back have given us:
24p
widescreen
HDV
720p
1080i
1080p
Long-life batteries that last 3, 4, 5 hours or more
tapeless recording on P2, SxS, and now SDHC
4:2:2 color
variable frame rates
SDI ports
in-camera slow-motion
NTSC/PAL switchable world cameras
HDMI ports
2K and 4K
raw
log gammas
Interchangeable lenses
True, real, decent audio recording.
cheap HDMI monitoring
Vastly better viewfinders and LCD panels
touch screens
Usable auto functions
big, bigger, and even gigantic sensors
Hybrid still & video cameras
Interchangeable lenses
1080/60p
3-year, and in the case of P2HD, 5-year warranties

Anyone who truly, honestly thinks that the big evil conglomerate corporate conspiring monstrosities (otherwise known less offensively as "the Japanese camera makers") are "trickling out technology" or are somehow "holding you back" ... anyone who actually believes that, needs a serious reality check.

Technology improves, and the companies introduce new products that incorporate it. If they didn't, if they tried to "hold it back", then someone else would come along and introduce it (as Red and BM have done). If nobody introduces it, then it's because it's not ready yet and nobody has figured out how to make a profit by producing that product yet.

 

[harddrive]

Besides, how much more would the Blackmagic cameras cost if they had OLPFs, better focusing tolerances, better quality control, better screens, etc? Probably quite a bit more. Those are just some of the common complaints I hear about them, and that's not to put them down but instead to illustrate that different companies focus on and balance different features for different prices.

In short, it seems like Blackmagic's CEO is engaging in a bit of hyperbole, perhaps to benefit his company.

Yes - agree with that. And it's not to say that the BlackMagic products aren't value for money. They are, and they appeal to a niche. That's fine - but it doesn't square with Blackmagic then saying about their competitors:

Petty has harsh words for other vendors. “They don't care about the product. Their only goal is to extract as much from the business as they can. It's incredibly short termist, and greedy."

Personally, I think Canon, Sony, Panasonic etc care more for their products than BlackMagic. They may charge more - but I'd have far more confidence in using a product from any one of those three manufacturers on a job I was being paid for. But OK, others may have different priorities for very valid reasons, it's as you say "...different companies focus on and balance different features for different prices."

I'm left unimpressed with BlackMagic's CEO's denigration of the competition. Black Magic may have got a decent product (for the price) - but so have their competitors. His words just leave me thinking "what are you trying to prove? What are you worried about?"

I don't think Canon, Panasonic and Sony are "holding back" at all. The cameras of today are awesome compared to 5, 10 or twenty years ago.

Yes, exactly. Go back twenty years and you'd be pushed to find a decent digital stills camera at all - just look at the situation now. And the video from even such as the GH2 - let alone more expensive DSLRs - is far superior to even top end dedicated video cameras of the era.

Twenty years ago, in the pro market, we'd have been talking state of the art about something like BetaSP and the BVW200, with these amazing new CCDs with no registration errors! (Not like "normal" tube cameras! ) And cassette tape giving comparable quality to big reel-reel machines! Compare that now to such as the PMW400 or F5 in almost any respect (including price) and see how far things have moved on. I don't think Canon, Panasonic and Sony etc are "holding back" either.

[EDIT - Just seen Barrys post above - exactly.]

 

[jimagine]

There's a gigantic difference between considering a company evil and suggesting that some companies are more rigid in their approach to innovation than others.
I work with both kinds and the difference is pretty apparent.

Having done some of the original work with still primes on video cameras, with the first P&S Mini35, I'm uber aware of the amazing strides in the last 5 years let alone 10.
But I've always rooted for the boat rockers and the risk takers that make big changes overnight.
I've lived on the bleeding edge with every change in film making and recording studios and wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[R Hudson]

Kind of funny. People complain about the pace of technology, and how the evil Japanese conglomerates are "holding you back".

I believe that I have said before that many of us have become "camera brats"

I absolutely marvel at what has changed in the last 10 years and the speed of change continues to increase exponentially.

I know I wouldn't be in the business as a freelancer if I had to purchase the same Beta SP camera, deck, and Avid Meridien system that I used at the going prices way back then. Heck, for what that all cost new you could literally buy a house instead!

 

[Mike Harvey]

I believe that I have said before that many of us have become "camera brats"

I absolutely marvel at what has changed in the last 10 years and the speed of change continues to increase exponentially.

I know I wouldn't be in the business as a freelancer if I had to purchase the same Beta SP camera, deck, and Avid Meridien system that I used at the going prices way back then. Heck, for what that all cost new you could literally buy a house instead!

This.

I think people tend to not appreciate just how fast the level of change has been in the last 15 years. I started working on my video degree in '98. When I first enrolled in classes, we had BetaSP, 3/4", and a couple of really high end Hi-8 cameras. Aside from a few Media100 machines to edit on, there was a $40k Avid machine, and a lab full of craptastic Premiere 5.0 machines. Most editing was done linearly. The little TV station I had interned the summer before had *1* $30,000 DVCPro camera. Everything else was $30,000-$50,000 BetaSP cameras. They had one Media100 machine for promotional work, everything else was deck to deck.

Today, folks are shooting with $1,500 *SLR* bodies and producing images that beat the crap out of anything under $50,000 in '98, and editing with tools that are tenfold more powerful for a tenth of the cost. I worked for over 12 years at the local CBS affiliate here in Seattle, and saw everything go from technology that really hadn't changed that much in decades to stuff we couldn't dream of ten years ago in the span of about five years. There was also a big production company across the street from the school. Not long after I graduated, the production company went under... too much competition from the folks working in their basements with VX1000's and Mac Pro's with Final Cut.

More power to BlackMagic Design for recognizing a niche and trying to fill it. I hope they succeed. But it's the Panasonic's, Sony's, and Canon's that got us to the point where the BlackMagic's can even dream of this sort of thing.

 

[Samuel H]

The change has been really mindblowingly fast. But it could be faster, and cameras could be a lot cheaper. As BlackMagic has proven.
That's what I believe, and I think that's why people feel disappointed, and why so many people love BlackMagic so much.

Cameras have become part of the semiconductor world, and this means faster evolution, that's why things can move so fast with the main manufacturers holding back.
A similar market with fierce competition and no holding back: gaming graphics cards. Top-of-the-line in 2013 was the GeForce FX 5950 Ultra (4 shaders running at 475MHz), today a low-end card has >500x the computing power (GTX 750, 960 shaders at 1033 MHz, and each of thos shaders is a lot more powerful than the old ones). 640x480 at 60i with 8-bit 4:1:1 color to 4K 120p with 14-bit RAW color is an increase in information of "just 135x". Make it 192x if you want it debayered and with 10-bit 4:2:2 color.

 

[maarek]

A similar market with fierce competition and no holding back: gaming graphics cards.

You do know that your Nvidia is purposely crippling their cards to sell FP64 capabilities to "proclients"? But you don't care because FP64 (and other compute stuff) is not something your interested in. That's why there is market segmentation. There are now only two real players in GPU space (AMD and Nvidia) and the competition ain't as fierce as it used to be. Nvidia can pretty much set whatever prices they want (anyone remember the GTX280 pricing debacle?). When you say "no holding back" it's ludicrous because Nvidia purposely held the GTX Titan (disabled one SMX) back so they could then release the unlocked 780 ti when AMD started getting close. And they did. They are constantly holding back.

So when Canon does it (1dx -> 1dc) it's bad and horrible but when Nvidia does it it's ok. (Tesla K40 -> GTX 780 ti (780 ti is actually even faster in many circumstances)

Blackmagic Cams exists in their own vacuum that has been created in the wake of the DSLR boom. They don't sell to the same customer base as Canon/Sony/Panasonic.

 

[harddrive]

The change has been really mindblowingly fast. But it could be faster, and cameras could be a lot cheaper. As BlackMagic has proven.
That's what I believe, and I think that's why people feel disappointed, and why so many people love BlackMagic so much.

Could cameras be cheaper? Maybe - but it depends what you expect for your money. BlackMagic have produced a cheap camera, yes, but it lacks many of the bells of whistles of cameras from it's competitors. It's just what some people want, fine, but it's wrong to think anyone is getting a comparable product, just cheaper.

And a lot of the reason it may seem cheap is that the money only really buys you the core of the system - a user is likely to have to add a lot more to that to get a usable working package.

I really don't want to be seen as knocking BlackMagic as such, or any of their products. They've seen a niche, gone for it, and made a set of people very happy. But for them to make remarks that their main competitors don't innovate, or are only in it for the profit, are outrageous and untrue. (Quote: "They don't care about the product. Their only goal is to extract as much from the business as they can.")

I still remember when the VX1000 first came out, and the DV system in general. As far as the recording system went, there was now something on sale to the consumer that was superior to BetaSP. (Even if the camera front end couldn't compete with a typical shouldermount Betacam.) IMO, that single launch alone was far, far more revolutionary than what BlackMagic have recently done, and Canon and Panasonic can claim credit for their own bits of "revolution".

 

[pulpfiction007]

Kind of funny. People complain about the pace of technology, and how the evil Japanese conglomerates are "holding you back".

This is the 10th anniversary of DVXUser. Which means that just 10 years ago, we were using standard-def 60i cameras. 10 years, people. 10 years ago we were using PD150s, in standard-def, 4x3, in 60i only, with maybe six or seven stops of dynamic range and unholy amounts of noise when the gain was turned on, with terrible noisy raspy audio and fixed lenses, recording 4:1:1 color, on a crinkly ratty tape that was prone to dropouts, and that had a maximum of 40 minutes of battery life. And we paid $5,000 for it. And thought we were getting a steal. We had digital component video in our hands, delivering Betacam-class imagery, for under $5,000. It was a breakthrough.

But that was state of the art, just 10 years ago.

In the last 10 years, those evil Japanese conglomerates that strive to hold us back have given us:
24p
widescreen
HDV
720p
1080i
1080p
Long-life batteries that last 3, 4, 5 hours or more
tapeless recording on P2, SxS, and now SDHC
4:2:2 color
variable frame rates
SDI ports
in-camera slow-motion
NTSC/PAL switchable world cameras
HDMI ports
2K and 4K
raw
log gammas
Interchangeable lenses
True, real, decent audio recording.
cheap HDMI monitoring
Vastly better viewfinders and LCD panels
touch screens
Usable auto functions
big, bigger, and even gigantic sensors
Hybrid still & video cameras
Interchangeable lenses
1080/60p
3-year, and in the case of P2HD, 5-year warranties

Anyone who truly, honestly thinks that the big evil conglomerate corporate conspiring monstrosities (otherwise known less offensively as "the Japanese camera makers") are "trickling out technology" or are somehow "holding you back" ... anyone who actually believes that, needs a serious reality check.

Technology improves, and the companies introduce new products that incorporate it. If they didn't, if they tried to "hold it back", then someone else would come along and introduce it (as Red and BM have done). If nobody introduces it, then it's because it's not ready yet and nobody has figured out how to make a profit by producing that product yet.

Agreed. There are so many interesting camera advancements in the last 4 to 5 years by companies large and small, that if one knows what they want to achieve - the cameras are there at all budget levels and shooting styles. I'm amazed at what we have available to us now.

 

[Samuel H]

@maareK: I did say *gaming* graphics cards. Everybody holds back a bit, but the issue is much smaller in that market because there's a lot more competition (even if it only has two players). If 500x processing power in 10 years is holding back, I'm fine with that (actually it's quite above the Moore law of doubling computing power every 18 months).

@harddrive: if you think BlackMagic is going for a niche, you've got it backwards. Look at the list of bestseller pro camcorders at BH:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Pro-Camcorders-Cameras/ci/16763/N/4256818817

Right now:
1 - BMPCC
2 - BMC-EF
10 - C100
11 - BMC-4K (preorders!)
15 - BMC-MFT

It looks like BlackMagic is serving the bulk of the pro video market, all the other ones are going for niches.
(and yes, I know the BMC is a very imperfect camera; but the image is so nice, and the price so low...)

 

[harddrive]

@harddrive: if you think BlackMagic is going for a niche, you've got it backwards. Look at the list of bestseller pro camcorders at BH:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Pro-Camcorders-Cameras/ci/16763/N/4256818817

Right now:
1 - BMPCC
2 - BMC-EF
10 - C100
11 - BMC-4K (preorders!)
15 - BMC-MFT

It looks like BlackMagic is serving the bulk of the pro video market, all the other ones are going for niches.
(and yes, I know the BMC is a very imperfect camera; but the image is so nice, and the price so low...)

Well.... whoever said a niche had to be small....? I take figures like that with a slight pinch of salt - it is, after all, only one section of one retailers list, but the point that many BM cameras are being sold is not in denial. But they are all of one basic type - whilst such as Canon, Panasonic, Sony make many models of many types across the board - professional/amateur, stills/video, shouldermount/handheld - that's why I think it's right to call BlackMagic "niche".

Heck, same goes for GoPro, who I suspect sell many more units than Blackmagic, but I'd still call them "niche". I'd actually argue they have more right to be called truly revolutionary than Blackmagic.

 

[jimagine]

Blackmagic Cams exists in their own vacuum that has been created in the wake of the DSLR boom. They don't sell to the same customer base as Canon/Sony/Panasonic.

Of course they do.
We have Canon, Panasonic and Sony cameras, and just got a BMPCC this week.
Great camera with an image that Canon can't match with anything but their best C300 and 1DC.
I love the image from our Panasonics too, but again, it can't touch the BMPCC image, but has other things that make it a great tool.

The BMPCC with the best MFT glass (like the Olympus 12, 45, 75mm that we're using) is simply a beautiful image and in it's own league, other than the most expensive systems.

 

[Samuel H]

Well.... whoever said a niche had to be small....? I take figures like that with a slight pinch of salt - it is, after all, only one section of one retailers list, but the point that many BM cameras are being sold is not in denial. But they are all of one basic type - whilst such as Canon, Panasonic, Sony make many models of many types across the board - professional/amateur, stills/video, shouldermount/handheld - that's why I think it's right to call BlackMagic "niche".

Heck, same goes for GoPro, who I suspect sell many more units than Blackmagic, but I'd still call them "niche". I'd actually argue they have more right to be called truly revolutionary than Blackmagic.

All true.

And the gopro has 7 models in the top 10 seller list at amazon for all camcorders:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Camcorders/zgbs/photo/172421
I'd love to have a niche market like that one

(can't look at it at BH because they separate regular and sports cameras)
(the BMC is the only pro camera in the top-100 amazon list, which doesn't separate pro and consumer)

 

[OlegKalyan]

Anything visible has been shot with Blackmagic cameras, in film, tv, commecials market? I do not see BM cameras feasible, for serious work there is Alexa, and many other oferings on the market.

A lot we can name shot on DSLRs, cameras, two great indie films of 2013 shot on GH2, C300.

the advances in technology has been so great, I remember VX1000 and AG EZ1, not too long ago.. has it been 10 years already?)

 

[Samuel H]

They will come...
Upstream Color (GH2) was shot from Nov-2011 to Jan-2012, Blue Is The Warmest Color (C300) from Mar-2012 to Aug-2012.
And the GH2 and C300 had been available for people to learn how to use them long before these features were shot on them.
The BlackMagic announcement was in Apr-2012, with the first cameras hitting the shelves in fall 2012.

 

[OlegKalyan]

Samuel, right, my point, I still yet have not seen anything of "wow" factor visual experience shot on BM.

 

[Samuel H]

I really like that choice of words, "wow factor visual experience shot on BM". Talk to you in a couple of months... (probably more, I think I've been saying "two months" since July) (I've worked in the project but my contribution is relatively minor, and the thing doesn't depend on me at all anymore)