Telecine

S

skycron

Well-known member
Stupid question --

What software should I be using in Apple to do a proper telecine? I would like to be able to have all my assets in 24 fps, and then have a nice smooth telecine to 29.97, for a DVD menu. Lots of DVD menus now have that nice film flutter...but I know they're not on film. I'd like to just do the whole thing in 24 fps, and when I'm done, telecine it all so it has a nice uniform look.

Can I do this in Cinema Tools/FCP?
 
Why not build them in 24 and let the DVD player decide to telecine it?

I do everything in 23.98 now for DVD.

CaptM
 
Because 2D animation will stutter. (As in DIsney). The results in letting the DVD player decode look awful. I need to telecine...and all I can find info on is reverse telecine.
 
FCP will do it but you have to dump it back to tape. Also check your bit rate settings. Not sure I've ever seen stuttering like that before.

CaptM
 
99% of all Hollywood authored DVDs are created at 23.98 fps, not 29.97. And I think you mean pulldown not telecine. Telecine is the photographic process of videotaping or digitizing 24 frames per second film to become 29.97 video, typically by adding pulldown.

All you want to do is add 3:2 pulldown to 24p native footage to make it 29.97 compatible. In doing so you're adding extra frames that don't need to be there and creating a DVD that will never be able to look it's absolute best due to having extra interlaced frames instead of being native 24p.

Also I'm not sure what you mean by '2d stutter- as in Disney.' What Disney film are you thinking of when you say that? All of those are animated for 24 fps film and typically transfered 1:1 as 24p DVDs just like nearly all movies today. For example, all Pixar movies begin life as 24p image sequences and are encoded directly 1:1 as 24p DVDs, 29.97 is only ever used for the increasingly rare VHS versions of the movies because VHS unlike DVD has no choice but to be 29.97, so pulldown is required.

So again not quite sure what you're hoping for here but you I recommend a bit more research to understand the differences between 24p and 29.97 and why 24p is vastly superior for DVD encoding. Here's a great place to start:

http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/

Cool looking website btw...

-Noah
 
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CaptainMench,

Thanks, I'll try it. I'm guessing FCP will just do it automatically when I dump out to tape and reimport? I'm in on the weekend myself and everyone's out for Thanksgiving (Canadian). :)

To Noah:

I find your post offensive. I think it should be obvious why.

You don't understand my post, by your own admission...but you feel fit to "educate" me? This is an affront on so many levels I'm in complete disbelief that anyone in their right mind could post such a thing. "I don't understand you, so you must not know what you're talking about."

I think the fairest thing is to address this point for point.

"And I think you mean pulldown not telecine. Telecine is the photographic process of videotaping or digitizing 24 frames per second film to become 29.97 video, typically by adding pulldown. "

The term telecine came from the videotape machine you speak of, but is now a generic term referring to any kind of 3:2 pulldown, software or otherwise. Pulldown is the process, telecine is the verb. Having dealt with television on 3 continents, this term is in use in every network I've ever done business with. All the BBC, CTV, CBC, NBC etc. folk I deal with call the 3:2 process telecine, so I'm calling it telecine, because that's what it is. A "Tele" ready version of a "Cine" image. This is the equivalent of me correcting you over calling a generic cassette player a Walkman just because it isn't made by Sony. And I, in days of yore, have spent many a late night transferring 16mm reels to a physical telecine machine, a big giant mainframe looking thing that took up a giant corner of a room and smelled of celluloid and mylar.

"For example, all Pixar movies begin life as 24p image sequences and are encoded directly 1:1 as 24p DVDs."

They start out, sure. As 4k sequences to be burned to film. But as far as direct DVD as 1:1 24p? They put out two versions. A progressive version and an interlaced version. Buena Vista usually handles the conversion though, as they have to take the 4k files and shrink them while maintaining image clarity.

And what I mean by -- "as in Disney" -- is 2D animation is ALWAYS shot at 24 frames -- as they are a series of photographed still images. (The drawings often are done on what we call 2s -- drawn at 12 fps and given 2 exposures, but it's still 24) As they are perfectly sharp drawings, there is no motion blur. Most of the Pixar guys started out as classical animators.

So a telecine process MUST be applied for animation to be played back correctly, interlaced, on NTSC. This is something you wouldn't encounter unless you have ever worked with 2D classical animation, as when you telecine live action motion blur tends to hide dropped frames. Because there is no motion blur to hide on a drawing, you get stutter.

So, I repeat my question: can you properly apply a telecine (3:2) pulldown to a 24fps, progressive source, so that it becomes an interlaced, 29.97 image. If you know how, please tell me, if you don't, please say so. But please don't tell me I don't understand the difference between 24fps and 29.97. If I didn't, I wouldn't be asking this.

I think you might want to poke around our site a little more...I appreciate your trying to help, though.
 
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skycron said:
Lots of DVD menus now have that nice film flutter...but I know they're not on film.
Click to expand...


That's because the motion gfx are done on a 24p sequence and rendered with motion blur set to 180 degrees (to mimic film). They are still typically encoded at 23.98 on the DVD. Going to 29.97 is unnecessary (and a waste of usable bitrate). Adding 2:3 pulldown is not a difficult task and just about every DVD player is more than capable of performing this correctly.

If you absolutely want to go to 29.97, Cpt Mench's solution of going out to tape and re-capturing would work. Just make sure the output pulldown settings are set to 2:3 and not 2:3:3:2 or 2:2:2:4.
 
Hi Big Boss,

Thanks, I'll try that. I don't really care what it is so long as it looks the same. :)
 
skycron said:
CaptainMench,

Thanks, I'll try it. I'm guessing FCP will just do it automatically when I dump out to tape and reimport? I'm in on the weekend myself and everyone's out for Thanksgiving (Canadian). :)

To Noah:

I find your post offensive. I think it should be obvious why.

You don't understand my post, by your own admission...but you feel fit to "educate" me? This is an affront on so many levels I'm in complete disbelief that anyone in their right mind could post such a thing. "I don't understand you, so you must not know what you're talking about."

I think the fairest thing is to address this point for point.

"And I think you mean pulldown not telecine. Telecine is the photographic process of videotaping or digitizing 24 frames per second film to become 29.97 video, typically by adding pulldown. "

The term telecine came from the videotape machine you speak of, but is now a generic term referring to any kind of 3:2 pulldown, software or otherwise. Pulldown is the process, telecine is the verb. Having dealt with television on 3 continents, this term is in use in every network I've ever done business with. All the BBC, CTV, CBC, NBC etc. folk I deal with call the 3:2 process telecine, so I'm calling it telecine, because that's what it is. A "Tele" ready version of a "Cine" image. This is the equivalent of me correcting you over calling a generic cassette player a Walkman just because it isn't made by Sony. And I, in days of yore, have spent many a late night transferring 16mm reels to a physical telecine machine, a big giant mainframe looking thing that took up a giant corner of a room and smelled of celluloid and mylar.

"For example, all Pixar movies begin life as 24p image sequences and are encoded directly 1:1 as 24p DVDs."

They start out, sure. As 4k sequences to be burned to film. But as far as direct DVD as 1:1 24p? They put out two versions. A progressive version and an interlaced version. Buena Vista usually handles the conversion though, as they have to take the 4k files and shrink them while maintaining image clarity.

And what I mean by -- "as in Disney" -- is 2D animation is ALWAYS shot at 24 frames -- as they are a series of photographed still images. (The drawings often are done on what we call 2s -- drawn at 12 fps and given 2 exposures, but it's still 24) As they are perfectly sharp drawings, there is no motion blur. Most of the Pixar guys started out as classical animators.

So a telecine process MUST be applied for animation to be played back correctly, interlaced, on NTSC. This is something you wouldn't encounter unless you have ever worked with 2D classical animation, as when you telecine live action motion blur tends to hide dropped frames. Because there is no motion blur to hide on a drawing, you get stutter.

So, I repeat my question: can you properly apply a telecine (3:2) pulldown to a 24fps, progressive source, so that it becomes an interlaced, 29.97 image. If you know how, please tell me, if you don't, please say so. But please don't tell me I don't understand the difference between 24fps and 29.97. If I didn't, I wouldn't be asking this.

I think you might want to poke around our site a little more...I appreciate your trying to help, though.
Click to expand...

Cory-

Um wow I was just trying to help you out as I've done on DVXuser.com since it was created. And I'm sorry you took what I was saying so personally.

And again I am sorry to point this out but I was just trying to explain more about how DVDs work- and it's not just for your benefit but for others reading this post looking for answers. Pixar DVDs are not created in two versions. They, like 99% of all Hollywood DVDs are encoded only as 24p DVDs. I would respectfully ask you to show me a catalog page anywhere on the internet where a progressive and non-progressive version of a Pixar or any other DVD movie for that matter are being offered.

You won't find one because just about all discs these days are encoded as 24p. The DVD player itself does the 3:2 pulldown- if necessary to derive a NTSC 29.97 signal. That's also why there are progressive scan DVD players that can pass the 24p signal directly to 24p native displays like computer DVD players plasma screens and LCD and DLP projectors. You can certainly add pulldown if you'd like to and make a 29.97 DVD but you'll be throwing away the ability to display the DVD as native 24p on those compatible displays with not much gain. Not too mention you'll have 20% less space on that DVD for all those extra frames being encoded that again are not necessary.

Now if you don't believe me or you think I don't know what I'm talking about, that's completely your right. But please don't take my expressing my opinion on your question and supporting it with examples as somehow being an insult. I don't even know you, so what possible reason would I have for doing that? It was not my desire to insult you or whatever else it is you felt I have implied or expressed with my posts. I think my record on this forum, Reduser.net, 2-pop.com and Creative Cow speaks for itself. Anyways, have a better one. :)

-Noah
 
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I hate it when people ask for advice then freak out when they receive it. It's worse than your girlfriend asking if that horrible pink shirt makes her look fat. If you want honest advice be gracious with peoples responses, or don't ask for help. Noah took the time to help you, and his advice was spot on.

Furthermore,
picking apart someone's post line by line is juvenile and so 10 years ago.


Happy Thanksgiving!
 
Thanks...we still have to go to videotape as well, so I'm glad about the 29.97 tip you gave as well.
 
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