Tearing my hair out over a budget and rate

[David Pascal]

Hi all. I have been a very avid reader of these forums for years, finally have an issue I'd love some advice on. I'm a young DP/Editor, but experienced. A producer I have worked with many times has been hired on a sub feature length documentary with a substantial (50K+) budget.

She is fairly inexperienced yet twice my age. We were discussing my day rate today as it pertains to the budget, as well as my sound guy. Since she has never produced something like this, she is adamant that her day rate match mine. Let's say 1,000/day for me, with equipment folded into that day rate. I will spare you the details, but I have more than enough to get by and to work with without having to rent. It is projected to be a 10-12 day shoot.

Since I also edit, she asked what my fee would be for the edit. I worked out the math, projected shooting ratio and whatever, and said a little less than half of the budget should be for editing, say 25,000 for 2 months of post. She said that was outrageous, and an editor/DP should never make more than a producer with my now combined fee for shooting and cutting. She says she wants to split it 50/50, 25,000 per person for the entire thing. You can see where this is heading.

She works 10 days and makes around 22,000 with a finder fee, a treatment she is writing, and producing/directing. I work those 10 days as well as probably 20-30 days editing and make the same amount.

I'd love to work on this project, but how do you guys deal with someone so obviously greedy and make them see reason and reality as it pertains to division of labor?

 

[Barry_Green]

Who cares what the producer wants to make? That's her call. You set a rate for your services, and a rate for your equipment, and a rate for your editing, and you stick to it.

If she wants to make more, she'll have to go raise more.

You lay out exactly what job you're gonna do, and what you're gonna charge for it, and then you walk away and let the numbers do their thing. She'll either go with you or not.

And by the way, you had better specify your editing quote on a per-hour basis, because already this relationship is showing that it's not gonna end well. Work by the hour, bill by the hour. Do NOT quote an all-inclusive rate or you'll be on this thing for a year, constantly re-editing, re-tweaking...

 

[MotionFx]

As always, good advice Barry!

 

[maranfilms]

So your not happy with 25,000 for ten days of shooting and a month of editing? Most people I work with would be thrilled to make a grand a day in this economy. I know some grips making under 200.00 a day, just to stay working. You get the point. So be careful you dont price yourself right out of the work. Just a question. How long have you been doing paying video work? And do you have a link to some work I can check out? Im looking into doing a documentary and would like to see some examples.

Look at it this way, Why worry about what the producers getting? If it wasn't for her you wouldn't be getting the job. So you may still want to give her a kick back regardless. Thats how it's done around where I live.

 

[David Pascal]

Who cares what the producer wants to make? That's her call. You set a rate for your services, and a rate for your equipment, and a rate for your editing, and you stick to it.

If she wants to make more, she'll have to go raise more.

You lay out exactly what job you're gonna do, and what you're gonna charge for it, and then you walk away and let the numbers do their thing. She'll either go with you or not.

And by the way, you had better specify your editing quote on a per-hour basis, because already this relationship is showing that it's not gonna end well. Work by the hour, bill by the hour. Do NOT quote an all-inclusive rate or you'll be on this thing for a year, constantly re-editing, re-tweaking...

I'm honored to have you reply, really.

The budget is strict, she has raised none of it. She was contacted by the principal in the documentary due to an article about her in the newspaper. She will in essence, have made the 10% finder's fee from a phone call, which I'm fine with. My issue stems from her trying to one up my rate just to hit the budget cap. I could do the project for my rate, for shooting which is flat. Editing I agree should be hourly, but she will not agree to that. I am well aware of the infinite changes due to a flat rate. She's just very unaware of budgets for this, as is the exec. producer (financier), so hourly scares them.

 

[David Pascal]

So your not happy with 25,000 for ten days of shooting and a month of editing? Most people I work with would be thrilled to make a grand a day in this economy. I know some grips making under 200.00 a day, just to stay working. You get the point. So be careful you dont price yourself right out of the work. Just a question. How long have you been doing paying video work? And do you have a link to some work I can check out? Im looking into doing a documentary and would like to see some examples.

Look at it this way, Why worry about what the producers getting? If it wasn't for her you wouldn't be getting the job. So you may still want to give her a kick back regardless. Thats how it's done around where I live.

The issue is this: I understand that's a good amount of money. But when I am working for 4 months, and she for 10 days, and it's split 50/50, that is not fair for my labor, materials, and expertise. It doesn't matter if the budget is 1000 or a million, 80% of the work (me and my sound guy) should not be paid 50% of the operating budget.

And trust me, I know about the economy. I shot a feature for 150/day.

I'm worried because she's doing none of the work, and me all of it, lighting, shooting, directing in essence, and editing and mixing. That's more than she will do exponentially. She's the middle man, and knows me. I actually have the resources and knowledge to make sure SHE gets the job from this guy. I should be compensated a bit more than her I believe.

And I should say a "kick back" IS the finder's fee. I'm not comfortable with the kickback being her, in reality, making 2500/day just to interview some people, whereas I will work 30-40 days and make the same rate as her. I get the whole "bow down to producer's thing", but this seems wildly unbalanced. I'm providing a crew, a ton of equipment, and editing. She had a few meetings with the financier, and expects me to help her write the treatment. I'm not just a DP/Editor on this, I'm essentially writing and directing as well.

 

[maranfilms]

Ok, that makes more sense. I see your frustration, I didn't realize you were as involved with the overll project as much as you are. I guess it really gets down to how bad you want the work. Is it better than not doing the project at all. Thats what you really need to decide. Because if she doesn't budge on price, then that may be your only deciding factor.

Im the type that would have something over nothing in way of work. But I know there's many that dont feel that way.

 

[David Pascal]

Yeah, sorry to be vague about it, I am involved from start to finish.

That's absolutely the case. In this economy, I need to think long and hard about something that will pay well but cause me a lot of stress and angst, or not do it at all. I think we, the shooters, the DP's, the small business owners, editors and everyone who does what "we" do have to swallow a ton of pride these days. And it's sad. Thanks for your advice maranfilms.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Sounds like she will be a pain in the a** either way.

Like Barry said, figure out your rate, give it to her and let her deal with it.

If she thinks her rate should "match" yours, then tell her to shoot, direct and edit the damn movie and she can have 100% of the budget.

 

[David Pascal]

She's fine with my rate for shooting. She wants me to cut my sound guy's rate, so she can up hers so she feels like she's "making enough money to make it worthwhile". She's leveraging the fact that she "got the project" as justification for me pretty much allowing her to get rich for a time. My fee obviously goes into upkeep and new equipment purchases. All she has to do is show up with an iPad, defer to me for any technical/filmmaking questions, and collect.

It's a sticky situation since I'd love the work, it's a project very interesting to me, etc. But it's turning into a pissing contest.

I should add that I told her I own my equipment and she said I shouldn't charge for that since it's already owned. I explained rental costs vs. ownership. This is the kind of person I'm dealing with.

 

[Noel Evans]

David, it seems your still letting yourself be stressed by the situation. As has been mentioned, give her your quote to do the job and move on. It seems like youre fighting to get your piece of the pie when the pie isnt yours to begin with. Its her job, and all you can do is quote your rates.

EDIT TO ADD: I agree with you in principal, but again what she wants to pay is up to her. And if she rejects your quote then thats it. But it seems like you may have also put yourself in a position that if she does reject your quote she may not consider you in the future.

I shoot for a lot of other production companies, and I have my rates - if they dont want to use me for a job because they dont want to pay that much, then I know its not a personal thing and next time they get me to quote again. I never care what the total budget is and who's getting what - as I said my rates are my rates.

 

[David W. Jones]

I agree with Noel here. Rather than getting into a battle of egos, quote a realistic bid for the job. Either they accept or they fine someone else.
You might also break your bid down into production, and post, since they have a problem with your bid on post. That way you still get to shoot the project, and someone else with have to accept their lowball post price and get all the headaches.

Good luck!

 

[Jim_Behl]

Just set your price with hourly editing. You can offer a certain amount for editing with an hourly fee after that, once that time has expired. For example, a rough edit of 3 weeks, then hourly rate after that.

 

[milksac]

I'm providing a crew

Why are you providing the crew?

She wants me to cut my sound guy's rate, so she can up hers...

If the producer wants to cut the sounds guys rate then the producer should talk to the sound guy about lowering his rate. If the sound guy walks away from the job then it's the producers job to fill that position. That's her stress to deal with not yours.

Reading through this thread it sounds like your stressed out because you're doing it all. Why are you doing it all ? Why can't you set boundaries? It's as if you're repeatedly smashing your hand with a hammer and then complaining that it hurts.
Pick a role and pick a rate. You can take on a couple of roles, DP & Editor for example, but you shouldn't try to do it all - that's insane and that's the source of your stress. Draw a line in the sand and find peace.

 

[Barry_Green]

Yep -- set boundaries. That's what I was trying to say as far as "give her your quote and walk away from it" but milksac said it much more eloquently -- set boundaries and stick with 'em.

The job will cost what it costs to do. Regardless of how much she "wants" to make. The job of the producer is to raise the funds to make the project. If she wants to make more, it is her job to go raise more, not your job to agree to take less. I understand what you're saying about "she hasn't raised any of it" but that doesn't alleviate her from her responsibility. If there's not enough budget to make it to everyone's satisfaction, then it is her job to go raise more. If she refuses to do her job, then she should take less. Simple.

Drop out of the whole emotional aspect of it -- that's a no-win game. Evaluate it as a job. And really, who cares what someone else makes on it? You decide what it's worth to you to do, and then you do it. If someone makes more, well, bully for them, so what? You still got what you wanted.

As for editing and hourly -- set boundaries. Set hard and firm boundaries. You will edit the film to the point that you think it's meeting your professional standards, over a period not to exceed 30 days. Any changes requested by anyone after that, will be accomodated at the rate of $125 per hour (or whatever your hourly rate is).

If she wants to be greedy to the point where she kills the project, then -- better that you found out what you were dealing with earlier, rather than later.
If she wants to see reason and that you are a professional and not someone she can bully around, then -- the project and the working relationship will turn out better.
If she wants to push you around and make your life hell, and you let her -- well, that's your fault, not hers. You're the one who let her. And you'll get some experience and know not to do that again.

If you want to spell it out hard, you can remove her entirely from the equation and just spell out what it will cost to make this picture. And if the hard costs are, say, $28k... and she screams that she should get at least 50% of the budget, then you can point out to her that her greed is harming the integrity of the project. It cannot be made for less. If she wants more, she should go out and raise more money. That is the job of the producer. Don't let her failure to do her job, impact you. You do your job, and you expect her to do hers.

 

[combatentropy]

I agree with what everyone said. Don't fret what someone else makes.

Money is a strange thing. The price of things changes frequently. It basically boils down to, what is a buyer willing to pay? So don't pin your life on what somebody paid someone else for something else.

Making money, I've found, hinges on three things:

Work. This is what you're focusing on. You are certainly working more than this lady.
Idea. A lot of Silicon Valley people overestimate this. If they just come up with a great idea, they're done. But an good idea is just part of the equation.
Chance. This is the multiplier at work in this dilemma. Being in the right place at the right time has a lot to do with how much money you make. The most extreme example is Jed in the Beverly Hillbillies. He fired a shell and struck oil. For firing one bullet, he made millions of dollars. It seems unfair. An honest bricklayer can work his heart out for a lifetime and never make so much. But Jed fired in just the right spot. This is an extreme example, but it applies everywhere.

It sounds like you may be fretting the Chance element, which your producer friend has had more of in this situation. It doesn't matter to you what you make so long as it is more than her. If you get 25,000, she should get 12,500. If you get 50,000, she should get 25,000. If you get 100,000, she should get 50,000, because she works less, else you will feel it's unfair. But all the while you forget how unfair life has been for your success too. How much of you having the knowledge and equipment that you have depended on your blood, sweat, and tears, and how much on chance? If you were born in Ethiopia, or born blind, or hit by a car, you wouldn't be able to make $25,000 for four months of work. So, while her chance to make money is not fair compared to you, don't forget that your chance to make money is unfair compared to millions of people around the globe.

 

[David Pascal]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I'm weirdly not feeling emotional about this, I just feel like she needs me and is also bullying me.

combatentropy, good advice. But on the flip side, I wasn't born in Ethiopa, and I feel like the ratios of compensation are being skewed way too much. Like I said before, whether the budget is a grand or a million, me doing the writing, providing all equipment, shooting and editing doesn't seem like I should be getting paid what she gets for 10 days of work.

The reason I am hiring the crew is because I have guys I trust and have worked with before, and I bring them onto whatever projects can use them.

 

[arniepix]

I just feel like she needs me and is also bullying me.

Then walk away. There's no need for you to be bullied. From what you've said, it sounds like she will never pay you what you consider to be a fair rate. Let her make the movie with someone who will be willing to be bullied and nickel and dimed.

 

[Nascency Chris]

Wow, I coulda used this thread a year ago! Some very sound advice here, I would heed it... submit your bid, stick to your guns and be ready to walk away at the drop of a hat if need be. I went through something like this all last year and wound up ultimately getting burned very bad from it, so much so that I questioned if I still wanted to continue in this line of work.

Don't do everything, like others said, pick a role and stick to it... ultimately this was my undoing. I had a producer who did nothing and I let it hang for most of the year but at the 11th hour I did all of the things that the producer should have been doing just to make sure we made it to air on time. One of the final straws for me was when we were two days away from initial air date and all of the paperwork for the show still had not been done, the producer suddenly had to go out of town and wanted me to do this as well and I flat out said "no".

The level of stress you will bring on yourself if you go down this road will not be worth any amount of money as the damage could potentially be long term...