Tascam HD-P2 blackburst/Composite sync

N

naavt

Well-known member
Time as come to use my almost forgotten Canon XH-A1.

I've realized that my tiniest Sony cam works best for shoulder work with all the bits needed (35 adapter+lenses+FF+monitor), but now I'm about to start a project where the camera will sit on a tripod most of the time so I want to dig the A1 from it's case and give it some use.

The thing is that I've came across a perfect solution for keeping sync between my Sony and my Tascam (a little box called TimeTool L), which doesn't seem to work with the A1.

Nonetheless, Tascam's operation manual (and many mates), states that the recorder can be synced to blackburst or composite video signals. Well...

...I've tried about everything with no sucess :(

Tascam's system menu recognizes a video input in the "Audio clock" sub-menu, I've tried to connect trough the A1 BNC to Tascam's BNC, trough A1 mini-jack to Tascam's BNC, messed with about all the TC preferences putting both camera and audio to the correct samples (44.1), but the damn TC light ends up flashing like crazy and no sync at all!... :(

Did some of the members ever achieved sync with composite or blackburst on Tascam's HD-P2? Or does some expert on this matter can enlighten me on how to achieve it?

Thanks a lot
 
naavt said:
Time as come to use my almost forgotten Canon XH-A1.

I've realized that my tiniest Sony cam works best for shoulder work with all the bits needed (35 adapter+lenses+FF+monitor), but now I'm about to start a project where the camera will sit on a tripod most of the time so I want to dig the A1 from it's case and give it some use.

The thing is that I've came across a perfect solution for keeping sync between my Sony and my Tascam (a little box called TimeTool L), which doesn't seem to work with the A1.

Nonetheless, Tascam's operation manual (and many mates), states that the recorder can be synced to blackburst or composite video signals. Well...

...I've tried about everything with no sucess :(

Tascam's system menu recognizes a video input in the "Audio clock" sub-menu, I've tried to connect trough the A1 BNC to Tascam's BNC, trough A1 mini-jack to Tascam's BNC, messed with about all the TC preferences putting both camera and audio to the correct samples (44.1), but the damn TC light ends up flashing like crazy and no sync at all!... :(

Did some of the members ever achieved sync with composite or blackburst on Tascam's HD-P2? Or does some expert on this matter can enlighten me on how to achieve it?

Thanks a lot
Click to expand...

The Tascam isn't syncing to timecode - since the A1 doesn't have a timecode output there isn't any present for it to sync to. Unless you're send it continuous code on its TC input or are jamming it from an external source, the recorder will stamp the files with its TOD clock, it does not have an internal TC generator. The video sync is for the audio sample rate clock, NOT a timecode clock - totally different clocks. Connect the composite video out from camera (BNC) to the video sync input (BNC) on the recorder. Set the audio sample rate to 48kHz (don't use 44.1 kHz on the recorder, that's NOT the correct sample rate for video ... the proper audio sample rate is 48 kHz). Set the "Clock Source" in the Tascam menu to "Video" and make sure the frame rate on the Tascam is set to the same as the camera. The Tascam will sync its sample rate to the video clock embedded in the composite video coming from the camera so the sync won't drift over long take. Slate your takes.
 
Steve House said:
...the recorder will stamp the files with its TOD clock, it does not have an internal TC generator. The video sync is for the audio sample rate clock, NOT a timecode clock - totally different clocks.
Click to expand...

Does that means that the TC reading on the recorder will not match the TC reading on camera?
If yes, what's the advantage on using such a method? The beauty of TC is that you can align both image and sound in FCP just by matching both TCs. Nonetheless, here's what I did...

...I've chosen the following settings on the recorder:

Project Menu:
TC: enable
clock source: video

Audio set up at 48KHz 16Bit (once things were set up like these the settings stayed ON. If I mess up with the samples the settings will flash slowly.


TC menu:
frame rate:25
rate pull up/down: tried with it OFF and every other option.
Freewheel: tried Infinite and 1
Trigger mode: tried Single and OFF
TC offset: tried OFF and ON

Every time I push the TC button the light flashes rapidly stating that something is not right.
 
naavt said:
Does that means that the TC reading on the recorder will not match the TC reading on camera?
If yes, what's the advantage on using such a method? The beauty of TC is that you can align both image and sound in FCP just by matching both TCs. Nonetheless, here's what I did...

...I've chosen the following settings on the recorder:

Project Menu:
TC: enable
clock source: video

Audio set up at 48KHz 16Bit (once things were set up like these the settings stayed ON. If I mess up with the samples the settings will flash slowly.


TC menu:
frame rate:25
rate pull up/down: tried with it OFF and every other option.
Freewheel: tried Infinite and 1
Trigger mode: tried Single and OFF
TC offset: tried OFF and ON

Every time I push the TC button the light flashes rapidly stating that something is not right.
Click to expand...

The TC reading on the recorder will not match that of the camera because your camera is not sending - is not even CAPABLE of sending - timecode to the recorder. What it is sending is a sync burst so the SAMPLE clocks, totally unrelated to any timecode clock or lack of it, will be synchornized in the camera and recorder. Let's say you're shooting a concert scene that lasts 15 minutes as a continuous take. Camera and sound start together and you mark it with a clapper. Now ingest the separate files into your NLE and line them up on the clap. As the scene plays out you might find the sound and picture gradually drift out of sync. This happens if the camera and the audio recorder do not have the same timebase and so run at very slightly different speeds. Using the video sync locks the recorder timebase to the camera and prevents this drift. It has nothing what so ever to do with timecode and conversely, timecode has nothing what so ever to do with preventing drift. The only thing timecode does, in a file based system, is to establish that single position reference for the initial lineup just as you do with the clapper slate.
 
Thanks once again for your insight Steve. It was very helpful since I now know how I'm going to do things. I'm just going to Free-run the XH-A1 and Jam the Tascam on TOD TC. DOing it every 4 hours or so will put things under a relative control, but...

...For the sake of it, I assume that the TC light on Tascam's recorder have to be ON even when synced to VIDEO, right? If it's flashing it won't even start recording when you push the red button!
 
naavt said:
Thanks once again for your insight Steve. It was very helpful since I now know how I'm going to do things. I'm just going to Free-run the XH-A1 and Jam the Tascam on TOD TC. DOing it every 4 hours or so will put things under a relative control, but...

...For the sake of it, I assume that the TC light on Tascam's recorder have to be ON even when synced to VIDEO, right? If it's flashing it won't even start recording when you push the red button!
Click to expand...

Something's not right. It's waiting for a timecode trigger to start recording I think and of course you're not sending it one. What are all your timecode menu settings?

Note .. I don't own an HD-P2 so this is a matter of the blind leading the blind to a certain extent. AFAIK, it should still slave to the video clock even in the absence of TC. Anyone else who has one, feel free to jump in.
 
Steve House said:
Something's not right. It's waiting for a timecode trigger to start recording I think and of course you're not sending it one. What are all your timecode menu settings?
Click to expand...

I've enabled TC on the Project menu/Settings screen and adjusted TC settings as follows:

clock source: video
frame rate:25
rate pull up/down: tried with it OFF and every other option.
Freewheel: tried Infinite and 1
Trigger mode: tried Single and OFF
TC offset: tried OFF and ON

Every time I started the camera and pressed Tascam's TC button but the TC light doesn't stay solid.
 
naavt said:
I've enabled TC on the Project menu/Settings screen and adjusted TC settings as follows:

clock source: video
frame rate:25
rate pull up/down: tried with it OFF and every other option.
Freewheel: tried Infinite and 1
Trigger mode: tried Single and OFF
TC offset: tried OFF and ON

Every time I started the camera and pressed Tascam's TC button but the TC light doesn't stay solid.
Click to expand...

That's the problem - You've enabled timecode when you're not sending it any. Without external timecode being supplied to the TC input it won't start. You must disable TC on the project settings menu.

Sample Rate: 48kHz
Timecode: Disable
Clock Source: Video
Frame Rate: Identical to Camera

Your camera does not send or receive timecode externally. While it may embed VITC in the video, this is not the same thing as the LTC which the recorder can read. As far as the recorder is concerned, the timecode in your camera does not exist and there's no settings that will make it see it. The HD-P2 does not generate timecode and even if it did there's no way to jam it into your camera. Unless you use an external timecode generator such as a smart slate connected by a cable to the recorder sending it code then syncing up film-style by photographing the code displayed on the slate at the start of the scene, a timecode workflow is impossible for you.
 
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Steve House said:
That's the problem - You've enabled timecode when you're not sending it any. Without external timecode being supplied to the TC input it won't start. You must disable TC on the project settings menu.
Click to expand...

With TC disabled it won't let me choose any sync settings. I think Tascam decided to put all the recorder's sync functions under the menu "Time Code". One of the reasons I think that is what we can found in the first sentence about TC in the recorder's manual:

"The HD-P2 has a wide range of timecode features. It can read incoming linear timecode (LTC) and has many functions including freewheeling, trigger on frame number, and timecode offset. The HD-P2 can also resolve its audio clock to a range of sources including LTC in and video in."

Then, the ONLY way to choose "video" as a clock source is to enable Time Code. In the operation manual you can read:

"The possible audio Clock Source values are:"

And one of them is: "Video – A variety of video formats can be fed into the BNC input and used for audio sync, including composite or blackburst NTSC and PAL, and trilevel sync from HDTV systems. Note that the Frame Rate (described below) must be correctly set to match the incoming video material."
 
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naavt said:
With TC disabled it won't let me choose any sync settings. I think Tascam decided to put all the recorder's sync functions under the menu "Time Code". One of the reasons I think that is what we can found in the first sentence about TC in the recorder's manual:

"The HD-P2 has a wide range of timecode features. It can read incoming linear timecode (LTC) and has many functions including freewheeling, trigger on frame number, and timecode offset. The HD-P2 can also resolve its audio clock to a range of sources including LTC in and video in."

Then, the ONLY way to choose "video" as a clock source is to enable Time Code. In the operation manual you can read:

"The possible audio Clock Source values are:"

And one of them is: "Video – A variety of video formats can be fed into the BNC input and used for audio sync, including composite or blackburst NTSC and PAL, and trilevel sync from HDTV systems. Note that the Frame Rate (described below) must be correctly set to match the incoming video material."
Click to expand...

The sync clock source is on BOTH the project settings menu and the timecode menu. With TC disabled you can't get to the TC menu but I think it should still be accessable from the Project Settings menu. Did you try there?
 
Steve House said:
The sync clock source is on BOTH the project settings menu and the timecode menu. With TC disabled you can't get to the TC menu but I think it should still be accessable from the Project Settings menu. Did you try there?
Click to expand...


Yes I did. Nonetheless the manual states that they are the same, only duplicated:

"Clock Source
This menu item is a duplicate of the Clock Source field on the Project Menu/Settings screen. There is only one audio clock source and changing either one affects the
other. This menu is included in the Timecode Settings for convenience."

I really appreciate your efforts on this but I understand that as you said "is a matter of the blind leading the blind to a certain extent" since you do not own a HD-P2.

I cannot find a solution for this but it has to be one! I even talk with the official dealer here but the guys are a mess and for what I've seen I know more about the subject than them and I'm no expert or near that!

I've emailed Tascam global yesterday but no reply until now.

If you can think of anything else I'm all ears. Thanks once again.
 
naavt said:
Yes I did. Nonetheless the manual states that they are the same, only duplicated:

"Clock Source
This menu item is a duplicate of the Clock Source field on the Project Menu/Settings screen. There is only one audio clock source and changing either one affects the
other. This menu is included in the Timecode Settings for convenience."

..
Click to expand...
I understand that. None the less, if you go to the Project Settings menu, can you not set the (audio) "Clock Source" item to "Video" even though timecode is disabled? If you can't change it, what happens when you enable timecode, change the clock source to "video" and then disable timecode? Does it stay on video or revert back to internal? If you still can't change it, what happens when you connect the camera to the BNC sync input, start recording in the camera so it's sending a video signal ... does the clock source item change to video on its own ot let you change it in the menu?
 
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Steve House said:
I understand that. None the less, if you go to the Project Settings menu, can you not set the (audio) "Clock Source" item to "Video" even though timecode is disabled?
Click to expand...

No, I cannot

Steve House said:
If you can't change it, what happens when you enable timecode, change the clock source to "video" and then disable timecode?
Click to expand...

It automatically jumps out to "Internal"

Steve House said:
Does it stay on video or revert back to internal? If you still can't change it, what happens when you connect the camera to the BNC sync input, start recording in the camera so it's sending a video signal ... does the clock source item change to video on its own ot let you change it in the menu?
Click to expand...

Nothing happens. With timecode disable the only options that it let me choose from are:

- Internal
- Word
- S/PDIF
 
Well, that about all the possibilities I can think of. I was under the impression that you could slave the audio clock to video blackburst regardless of whether you were sending the recorder timecode or not. Perhaps the folks you wrote at Tascam tech support will give you some insights. When you hear back from them let me know what they have to say. If you really can't lock the recorder's sample clock to video blackburst without also sending it LTC timecode, that's a pretty big negative as far as I'm concerned.
 
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