Tascam DR-680 8-Track - single input with multiple levels?

J

Jonny Walks

Member
Hi All,

I'm currently filming a webseries of shorts, it's low budget and am having some issues with sound levels. The dialog can be loud then soft and I'm having to do multiple takes to get the sound right. The obvious solution would be to have a sound person in, but that's not an option at present.

You can see my latest effort at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFOcYfd28SI

For reference I'm using Countryman B6 Lavs with Sony UWP-V1 Wireless. I'm currently recording the sound using my DVX, while the video is on a Canon 550d. I'm syncing them with a slate.

My thinking is to use a Tascam DR-680, feed a mic input in but then set one channel slightly higher (to record soft voices) and one channel slightly lower (for loud shouts) or normal for the rest. Then in post I can switch between the channels and avoid the clipping or buzz of levels being too high or low.

My question - is this possible with the DR-680? That is have one input, but send it to two channels for recording? Or is it possible to use an XLR splitter and send the same input to two channels physically? Has anyone any experience with this?

Or is there a better alternative altogether?

Any comments or ideas would be most welcome!

Jon
 
Watching the clip you posted, I think you need to worry more about the placement and type of your mics than trying to record different levels. It sounds like the guy either isn't mic'ed or his mic is under the table somewhere.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're basically saying there's no money to hire a sound guy, but there is money to buy you a shiny new toy so you can attempt to kludge together a solution better solved by just hiring a sound guy.
 
I agree with the others, find a sound person. They don't have to have decades of experience, just a student interested in production sound could work with what you have (and be cheap or free).

Jonny Walks said:
feed a mic input in but then set one channel slightly higher (to record soft voices) and one channel slightly lower (for loud shouts) or normal for the rest. Then in post I can switch between the channels and avoid the clipping or buzz of levels being too high or low.
Click to expand...

But if you refuse to do that, your DVX can do what you want. Plug the receiver into input 2. Turn off phantom power and AGC, and switch both channels to input 2. Then set the gain of channel 1 to the level for normal talking, and set the level for channel 2 for the level of yelling or loud talking. Then you can mix them in post.
 
Thanks for the comments! Yes I agree a sound person would be great, being in Perth Australia there aren't that many people in sound. It's not that I am refusing to! Just a lack of local talent in the area. I could pay someone $40 per hour to record sound, but then that only equates to 25 hours of hire time for the cost of a DR-680. If it takes me 4 hours to film each episode then that is only 7 before I could break even.

The link I posted has my attempt to fix the sound, it's not great thus the search for alternatives. Each actor had a Countryman B6 Lav on them which went to the DVX. In post I then split out the stereo recording to two mono tracks, I then mixed between the channels to try to get something usable. My thought was a DR-680 would give me a few different levels to mix between, but I don't know if this would work?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/member.php?53922-vgerAn alternative (as mentioned) would be to put a single mic into the DVX and then record two levels for that single actor. The issues with this approach is that it doesn't work for a wide shot with both actors, it's a pain to keep swapping the cables (it can only record to both channels from one input) and is more difficult to edit. This is similar to what I'm thinking with the DR-680 except I could record both actors at the same time. But presumably record a single input into two independent channels.

Thanks Lee I'll take a look at the PMD-661. I suspect though that this will be the same as recording onto the DVX with 2 channels.

I would of thought this would be a common problem for people shooting with little crew or by themselves? I guess then that either the sound is kept at a similar level, or they ride the levels (somehow while doing other things) or people aren't actually shooting by themselves?

I suspect that this isn't the best place to ask in a sound forum, since sound engineers will be frustrated at the constant poor recording of sound by people doing it without a sound operator. Asking for advice on how to do it with minimal crew might upset, this isn't my intention and for bigger shoots I'd get someone in for sound. This is just me learning at present before I do anything big, so please don't take offense.

My question remains though is this possible with the DR-680? That is have one input, but send it to two channels for recording? Or is it possible to use an XLR splitter and send the same input to two channels physically? Has anyone any experience with this?
 
The 680 will require a xlr splitter.

And asking how to do sound on an economy budget doesn't offend me, and I am a location sound recordist. What DOES get frustrating is that the same question is asked, over and over, and the answer is always the same. It's no different than on the image side of things:

Here's how it does:

Quality gear + experience + dedication = quality

If any of three needs to be sacrificed, the best results will be obtained by reducing the quality of the gear and retaining someone with experience and passion for sound . It's amazing what can be done with minimal gear and lots of experience and dedication. Far too often, it is believed that it is the gear that makes the biggest difference and that is simply not the case. It's no different than putting a quality camera in the hands of someone who knows nothing about apeture, depth of field, iso, and rule of thirds and how these are applied to setting up a shot.

I highly suspect that there is more than one school in Perth teaching film courses, and that there are a handful of students who are focused on the sound portion of filmmaking.

Filmmaking is a highly collaborative effort and team building is essential to producing a quality product.

On the flip side, if sound is your thing, and you're willing to dedicate hundreds of hours practicing and honing the craft of location sound recording, than stepping up to better gear will improve the result over what can be done with lesser quality gear.

My wife is a professional make-up artist and has a kit worth over $10k. Give me access to that kit and the results would be fairly predictable. It would be a worse result than if my wife used a few colored pencils and pens.

Does that make sense?



Jonny Walks said:
Thanks for the comments! Yes I agree a sound person would be great, being in Perth Australia there aren't that many people in sound. It's not that I am refusing to! Just a lack of local talent in the area. I could pay someone $40 per hour to record sound, but then that only equates to 25 hours of hire time for the cost of a DR-680. If it takes me 4 hours to film each episode then that is only 7 before I could break even.

The link I posted has my attempt to fix the sound, it's not great thus the search for alternatives. Each actor had a Countryman B6 Lav on them which went to the DVX. In post I then split out the stereo recording to two mono tracks, I then mixed between the channels to try to get something usable. My thought was a DR-680 would give me a few different levels to mix between, but I don't know if this would work?

An alternative (as mentioned) would be to put a single mic into the DVX and then record two levels for that single actor. The issues with this approach is that it doesn't work for a wide shot with both actors, it's a pain to keep swapping the cables (it can only record to both channels from one input) and is more difficult to edit. This is similar to what I'm thinking with the DR-680 except I could record both actors at the same time. But presumably record a single input into two independent channels.

Thanks Lee I'll take a look at the PMD-661. I suspect though that this will be the same as recording onto the DVX with 2 channels.

I would of thought this would be a common problem for people shooting with little crew or by themselves? I guess then that either the sound is kept at a similar level, or they ride the levels (somehow while doing other things) or people aren't actually shooting by themselves?

I suspect that this isn't the best place to ask in a sound forum, since sound engineers will be frustrated at the constant poor recording of sound by people doing it without a sound operator. Asking for advice on how to do it with minimal crew might upset, this isn't my intention and for bigger shoots I'd get someone in for sound. This is just me learning at present before I do anything big, so please don't take offense.

My question remains though is this possible with the DR-680? That is have one input, but send it to two channels for recording? Or is it possible to use an XLR splitter and send the same input to two channels physically? Has anyone any experience with this?
Click to expand...
 
Hi Gpforet,

Thanks for the reply and response. :o)

Yes I understand your point, I agree completely. This is my goal. To find a team of local people who are willing to put in the effort and have the passion to put in the time into making quality films. After the comments here I will recommit to the search as I'm feeling inspired again after the replies here.

What tends to happen is people are attracted to work when they see it as "good". Then you will get no end of people wanting to be involved. The issue is of course that when you have got to a stage where it is "good" (for want of a more descriptive word) you probably don't need that help anymore.

With my little projects I am trying to make it good enough to attract people in who have the passion and time to be involved. That is they can connect and see something they like, even if it is small. Until then I will continue doing the best with what I have, ie me.

Sound is very important to me, I really want to get it as good as I can. My plan is to keep trying and each time I'm hoping it will get a little better. Just a little is fine, so long as I am gaining experience and learning that small step is my goal. My questions are only ever in this regard.

Many thanks for your replies, we'll see how I go and hopefully I'll have something a little better to post next time! :o)

Regards, Jon
 
camera guys seem to be abundant, so maybe find someone else to shoot it and you do sound. i've found plenty of people who can shoot well will work for free, but most shooters make horrible sound people and are afraid of it.
 
The 680 will sound great. You don't need to split anything. Just set up the mic, then have your talent yell, and set the levels based on that. If they can yell and it doesn't clip - you are good to go.

But for real pro, get a preamp/mixer like the SD MixPre. That has optical limiters on the input and output (and many more features). The MixPre can generate a tone. You play the tone into a recording device, then set whatever recorder's level to -20db. At that point you are virtually unclippable thanks to the MixPre limiters. But also with the Mixpre, you can have one mic go to 2 channels, so if you still wanted to record at 2 different levels you could. But MixPre to any digital recorder (that takes Line level input) will do your audio right. A mixer is very important for professional audio.

Cheers
 
Thanks manglerBMX, yes this sounds like a practical solution at present. Camera Ops/DOP seem to out number Sound Ops maybe 10:1. I suspect this is the approach I will follow for now. I'll post on my results back here as I suspect this is a common situation, but people just don't seem to comment on these set ups.

Jordan - thanks for the comments, although I fear you are misunderstanding me which is understandable. I agree that I am not comparing apples with apples in my cost analysis! A pro sound op will always give much better sound than anything I can put together. I fully accept that, and I have had the pleasure of working with some great sound people in the past, the audio could not be faulted and it made the final piece much better. If anyone has the chance to work with a dedicated Sound Op who knows what they are doing then please do go for it, it's an experience that will be most useful.

For this project it is low-budget, I'm filming it in a friends front room, with borrowed equipment and some items that I own. I don't want to bore the readers with the details. What I am doing is for fun/learning, but I'm wanting to improve what I am doing through experience. Yes I can hire a pro as you've mentioned one website that has a list, other websites in my area are the Film and Television Institute (FTI) www.[B]fti[/B].asn.au that has short courses on audio. It's a good course, I've done it myself and really enjoyed it, I just wanted to understand the basics. But to find people who are not being paid, but are committed and have a zing to want to learn and grow is difficult. I do not believe that I am the only person who has this issue.

Purchasing a Tascam DR-680 is one of several possible options I have to take my projects to "the next level". Yes it would be great if they could be perfect from the beginning but this isn't, in my experience, a realistic expectation of something so complex as making a film when not much money is being spent. To purchase a 680 is a fixed cost, whereas hiring someone (albeit which will result in better quality) is a variable on-going cost. If I could get the 680 to make my sound a little better, that is serving the story and not a distraction in anyway then I will be content with it's quality. The 680 may work in my situation, in which case it will be a good stepping stone towards inspiring some Sound Ops to come and work with me. At present I have a little way to go! To raise the capital for a fixed cost is easier than an on-going cost.

Chadfish - thanks for taking the time to respond I do appreciate it! I Googled the SD MixPre and it looks like it might be an option as well, it's a two channel device (for those reading).

If I were to set up the audio levels with the "shout" would the SD MixPre or (even 680) still pick up normal talking levels? I tried much the same with the audio recording on the DVX 100 (which I'm currently using to record audio) and the output was too faint to make out talking levels clearly? Do those recorders have a "wider volume range" than the DVX? If so, then that would solve the problem in one hit!

Thanks again all for the comments! I'm certainly getting some new options which is great. :o)

Jon
 
Jon if you are recording at 24 bit (rather than at the normal camera 16 bit) you have an extended headroom, which helps when trying to turn up low level recordings. The "Yell" method is for when you don't have a limiter, though it's good to see what to levels look like anyway. If you know the loudest intensity of your performance, they don't have to yell to get a level - unless they will be yelling in the scene. Limiters can save you, but ideally you don't want to have to. The 680 has limiters too, but not so nice as on the MixPre. You have to have good mic placement too. Get that mic as close as possible. In a perfect world you would be recording through a mixer into a digital recorder, with a person booming and another person running the mixer, riding the levels. It's the riding of the levels by a human making decisions that gets that pro sound. And you ride mixer levels, not recorder levels. When you ride recorder levels you will be making the noisefloor (however noticeable it is) change, and that's not good. To hear a faint hiss go up and down is bad. A good mixer has clean gain that won't add noise when you turn the level up.
 
Thanks so much Chadfish :o)

Yes that has made things more clear I think! That sounds practical I will look further into this. My understanding is that the DVX100 records at 16bit sound, so perhaps that is part of the issue too.

Jon :o)
 
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