Syncing multicam shoots

B

Blit

Well-known member
Hi
Question: Given my gear and the event to be recorded what is my best path to recording and syncing sound with picture.

The equipment:
PC Laptop, Zaxcom Maxx, Zoom H6, Zoom H2Next, Sennheiser G3 (2 sets, one with plug-on), Canon C100 with AT-7043, Canon XF105 (x2) with AT-897s, Canon 70D, Canon HF R400 camcorders (x2), Canon Powershot120 compact still.
MICS AT-8010 Omni condenser(x2), AT-4053 with 4049 + 4051 capsules, AT-M510 Cardioid Dynamic Vocal mic (x2), AT-U841A Omni Condenser Boundary mic, Lavs that come with G3 (x2), Yamaha Stagepass 400i PA. Projector 640 X 480. House has working projection screen but all other house equipment is basically broken and we use our own. We put on three programs per year, every year at this venue. Auditorium holds up to 270 people, we seat on folding chairs between 75 and 175 for our programs. Schedule is potluck dinner followed by program. We have one hour to set up before dinner, dinner lasts one hour and then the program is supposed to be one hour but usually runs long by about 15 minutes. We have one volunteer sound guy who has experience playing in a band and one video guy (me) who’s day job is in computers (so that’s covered well). We can recruit volunteers as needed usually, but not the same ones repeatedly. Different people come to different shows. Occasionally real Hollywood Union people volunteer as we are near LA, that’s nice when it happens!

The Event:
Straightforward auditorium program with 1-3 people speaking, audience questions, PowerPoint, videos, audio from laptop all in varying combinations.

The Setup:
I want to set up a three camera shoot with the C100 about 25’ back from the speakers locked down on sticks as camera A. One XF105 as Camera B Stage left about 30’ from speakers locked down on sticks. Second XF105 roving for close-ups and audience shots (reverses and questions). The 70D and the little Powershot120 for stills (shame to use 70D for stills…) I shoot only the speakers getting PowerPoint or video as digital lfiles to insert in Post. I often will run a small camcorder shooting both as a scratch track to know where in the Powerpoint the speaker is.
Both G3s go into the Zaxcom Maxx along with an ATM510 on a wire for Non wireless speakers. I should mention the Maxx has the six input option. The C100 and two XF105’s record scratch tracks from their shotguns. HF R400s record from onboard mics as scratch tracks.

Now where it gets tricky. Please understand that lots of this stuff is still in the boxes and we need to learn to use it. I believe in test, test, test and practice, practice, practice. BUT whatever I can gather beforehand for knowledge can help save time and improve our methods.
So I do not want to spend the rest of my life syncing in the edit bay. We have Plural Eyes but I didn’t get it to work in its previous version syncing previous camera’s scratch tracks. We have the new version but I haven’t tried it yet. This is my thinking, thanks for your patience. Use the Maxx as the Master clock and free run jam the XF105’s to it. Line up the C100 and the two HF R400s and use a remote to sync their clocks. Then instruct camera operators to zoom in on the Maxx’s running Time clock screen every time they start a new clip. Clap board also. But how to sync those three to the Maxx? I could line up all the Canons and use a remote to sync them. But then the Maxx is out of the loop. I could try pushing its button at the same time. I could buy Denecke stuff but that gets into $$$ on our budget. Yes we got a lot of new stuff but money is mostly spent. I could buy some more G3 receivers and make one transmitter the master and give at least the C100 and two XF105s the same sound. I could run cables from the Maxx to the locked down C100 and XF105.
I should mention that I need a Swiss Army Knife solution for all the other shoots we do. Lots of interviews and some micro-docs.
I plan to use the Zoom H6 as a podium or speaker’s table plant mic for backup.
We haven’t had any luck using an audience mic. The speakers forget to repeat the questions and no one will wait for a mic to get passed into the audience or someone to go into the audience with a mic. So far best we can do is to swing a camera around with a shotgun and hope for lots of clean gain. If I can figure out the question, in post I can put a lower third with CC type text in.
Well, I hope I have given enough correct info to get some help back. We only will use as much equipment as we have people to run. So not every event gets the full treatment. But I need to know how to do the full treatment.
Another idea of mine. Get an analog mixer (so we have sliders) and mix everything down live and feed it to Maxx and locked down cameras.
The Yamaha Stagepass 400i PA hasn’t arrived yet but that has a mixer of some kind in it. I wonder if I could run everything into that and it would give me an output useful to record from (prefade)?

Please let me thank responders in advance for your suggestions. I am assuming that from the answers I will be setting up some tests. Unfortunately time is in short supply with two kids and a day job. So I need to make the tests count.
 
So, in 4 hrs from posting you 'bump' the thread.... It sound like you need a production "TEAM" of experienced people rather than a few helpers... Not much a forum can help with in a few words.
Do you have any single problems rather than link EVERYTHING in as one problem.... Maybe thats why you haven't had any replies.
 
Thanks for the response. I agree.

I need advice on the best approach to shoot multicam with a mixture of timecode and no timecode equipment. I am believing that this is not uncommon these days.
 
There isn't any arcane "magic" technique that professionals guard within a secret society. IMNO, the single easiest "technique" would be to leave all the cameras running end-to-end without starting and stopping. That will give you sync as close as those fancy software gadgets ("Plural Eyes", et.al.) within the limits of the gear you are using.

Not clear really is how many "speaking parts" there are and exactly how you are micing them. In particular, the troublesome task of capturing audience questions. With your limited resources, I suggest having the presenter(s?) repeat the questions for the record as you will never get a decent capture of the original audience participation, etc.

Also not clear is what "production level" are you going for here? With only an incidental unskilled helper or two available, I hope you don't think you are going to get "professional" results. A casual "record" (audio and/or video) of the event is one thing. A broadcast (or theatre) quality production is probably beyond the capabilities of your resources.
 
I am not sure what you are using for your software. I routinely film speakers with PowerPoint as you are doing. I set the A cam (Panasonic HPX-250) up on the speaker, I have a B cam (cheap consumer camera) filming just the PowerPoint slides so that I can insert high resolutions in post, and then I take shots of the audience with a C cam (frequently a Nikon D800). I use Final Cut Pro X which has some really easy sync on audio features and multi cam abilities. I have a Sennheiser G3 to the speaker, a back up microphone (Sony ECM 55b) on the speaker going to a TASCAM DR40 just in case, and then I do not worry about the quality of the audio in the B Cam. It is there to sync on. As for audience shots, these are mainly cut aways and the sound does not really have to sync up as long as the audience reactions are congruous to what is being said by the speaker. It is not an elegant solution, but it works. As for a lot of zooming, it can look really cheesy. One of the things I have done is have two cameras on the same subject. One is on close up views and the other is in mediuma range. For most talking head presentations, close up to medium close up seems to be reasonable. Then take the two video streams and cut from the multi cam clip.

You already have a C-100 and two XF105s. You should be able to set up the XF105s on each speaker, do the sound, film the slides, and catch the audience. As for questions, you may want to look at getting the wireless XLR microphone SKP300 plug on transmitter and a receiver for questions. Have the audience raise their hand, take the mic to the audience member and take the 70D to their spot and get the question. On a short budget, one must make compromises for audience questions.

As for Plural Eyes, I have not used it. I hear that it does a great job syncing clips and audio. Set a loud marker sound. Get an clapper board or one of the apps for the iPhone or iPad. You have it in front of camera and push the button and you have a sync point for Plural Eyes. You may want to check out some of the tutorials over at Lynda.com or one of the other resources on the web. I am not sure if you have the ability to sync time code on all of the devices that you have, but the sync on audio works fairly well for many if you use a loud sync sound, or the apps.

You should really sit down and think about what you want the final project to look like, and match the resources to each aspect of what the finished project is to be. I often do not have any extra people when I am doing the shoot as I outlined. While not ideal, I have had some great results. It is a matter of keeping it simple with reliable equipment that you have tested multiple times. As for sound, the one caution that I would give you is that audio for presentations is one of the most important aspects.

Good luck!
 
Richard - THANKS

Too bad about no arcane magic, hope springs eternal... Yes , I agree, the fewer times the cameras are started and stopped the better, by far. This may be the biggest takeaway.

Usually one speaker, sometimes two, and could be three. Usually only one at a podium. We mic them with Sennheiser G3 wireless Lavs. For introductions and other announcements we use a wired dynamic cardioid at the podium. Audience questions are problematic. The speakers are not skilled and forget to repeat the questions. The audience forgets to wait for a mic to get passed in. I suppose we could make a big deal of it and train everyone to behave but that kinda kills the atmosphere. So when needed I just write the question on the screen with titling during editing.

Good point about production goal. Bottom line is it is a record of the event. We aspire to make the video which goes up on Vimeo good enough that people interested in it will watch it online. I am trying to make three online versions. One is a 30 second promo. Another is a less than ten minute summary. The third version is the whole hour long program. With different people volunteering I haven't any expectations of pro or broadcast quality. Just doing the best we can with what we have. Now having some equipment that will use timecode I am trying to figure out how to utilize it.

THANKS for your help, always enjoy reading your comments!
 
BillinSC -> THANKS!

Your reply is very close to what we use currently. With new equipment I plan A cam 25' in front of speaker, medium close up locked off on sticks. B cam stage left 30' as close up on sticks sometimes with operator, sometimes locked off. C cam roving for reverses on audience and interesting shots. D cam as scratch cam to sync PowerPoint and speaker, just for editor. Still cams for stills.

Zoom H6 on podium as backup to the wireless.

Wireless goes int Maxx mixer/recorder along with the wired dynamic Cardioid.

Currently I use a clap board and line up the audio in premiere manually. I try to let the cameras run.

With the new equipment this group has gotten I was hoping for some "help" from the equipment. We bought the Maxx because it has a screen that shows running timecode. I hoped we could just zoom each camera in on that screen at the beginning of shots and then the editor (usually me) could use it to sync. I also hoped that I could jam the two XF105s to the Maxx. I also have hopes that the new version of Pluraleyes will work where the old one didn't for me in my setup.

THANKS for relaying your experience. It helps to hear how others do it. I am always learning.
 
Blit said:
Audience questions are problematic. The speakers are not skilled and forget to repeat the questions. The audience forgets to wait for a mic to get passed in. I suppose we could make a big deal of it and train everyone to behave but that kinda kills the atmosphere. So when needed I just write the question on the screen with titling during editing.
Click to expand...
Solutions I have used (all with varying results, and selected to fit the situation)....

1) If you have more than 30-50 people in the audience, or in an acoustically difficult or noisy environment, many of the audience members appreciate repeating the question as well so they can all hear it.
2) Repeating the question also allows the presenter to state the question more concisely when the audience questioner rambles on and on. Or to correct a misunderstanding on the part of the questioner.
3) Repeating the question also allows the presenter to gather their thoughts for the response while the question is repeated.
4) Some presenters are very sharp and "get it" about the necessity of repeating the question for the record. Sometimes with a verbal (acoustic through the air) prompt from me (or a crew member).
5) Put the program organizer/producer/whatever in the front row with the task of reminding the presenter to repeat the question if they forget. Put them on wireless production intercom headset to remind THEM if they forget!
6) Put the organizer/producer/MC/whatever at the wired stand-up mic as the "moderator" who repeats the question. This is even better for some presenters to give them time to prepare their response.
7) Use the on-camera mics for cameras that are closer to (or within) the audience area. Crank up the gain to hear the person speaking. Typically much better when you can SEE the questioner on camera. Often used in conjunction with...
8) Put up sub-titles (or full-screen) transcription (edited for conciseness and brevity) of the question.
9) Edit out long-winded "questions" from the audience and cut directly to the repeat of the question by the presenter or the moderator/MC.

Of course all these are applicable in SOME situations, and not in others. You will have to make your own production/edit decisions based on your situation.

Handing around wireless hand-held mics for audience questions/response is rarely workable, IME.
Putting up one or two stand mics in the aisles for audience members to queue up works in some large, formal events, but typically not for smaller, more naive/inexperienced audiences. Again, IME. Your audiences may be better.
Covering audience questions/responses with multiple boom mics is a-priori ruled out as beyond the scope of your resources (because it requires multiple, SKILLED boom operators)
 
Richard -> THANKS!

Great advice - a how-to manual for audience questions. For my situation number 6 / put a moderator on the wired mic to repeat the question, if the speaker forgets, is an absolute gem.
 
Rick R & Richard -> THANKS! Correct if I let the cameras run for over an hour I will certainly find out if they drift. I could make the XF105s my A & B cams and cable them together with Genlock. That solves those two, but how do I then get them to play with the other free running cameras. Maybe I don't... Only the C100 needs to be additionally synced and hopefully the new PluralEyes will come to the rescue.

OzGizmo -> THANKS! I believe my one try and fail with the old PluralEyes was due to using the on camera mics on cameras located in different parts of a very live sounding hall. Can anyone shed some light on mic placement and its effect on PluralEyes. I did play with the adjustments in the program to no avail in that case.
 
Instead of shooting the screen to get the Powerpoint slides as they are projected, get copies of the slide show files themselves. Export each slide as an image file and insert it into the video timeline as you would a full screen still image during post. Most the examples I've seen where a camera shot a screen, the result was difficult to read. Better to treat the slide as a still cutaway.
 
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When I was doing conference type work, my video cohorts always split the RGB projector feed and converted it to video via a 'mediator' box, if I recall correctly. The split/mediator set-up looked like a high school science project but worked good. This was a few years ago and were live switched productions.
 
Blit said:
Rick R & Richard -> THANKS! Correct if I let the cameras run for over an hour I will certainly find out if they drift.
Click to expand...
It is safe to assume that they will drift without testing them. Over an hour, maybe even several minutes.

I could make the XF105s my A & B cams and cable them together with Genlock. That solves those two, but how do I then get them to play with the other free running cameras. Maybe I don't...
Click to expand...
You don't.

Only the C100 needs to be additionally synced and hopefully the new PluralEyes will come to the rescue.... Can anyone shed some light on mic placement and its effect on PluralEyes. I did play with the adjustments in the program to no avail in that case.
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If you want reliable operation with PluralEyes, then cable a hard audio feed to all the cameras. On-camera mics are subject to delay through the air, but worse, they are subject to echo and reverberation which makes it much more difficult for PluralEyes.

@Steve, I understood that Bilt is getting the actual PPT slides from the presenters to drop into the NLE timeline. The camera is only shooting a non-production "guide" to see where the slides go in the presentation. And that is what I do also (when I'm not live-switching).

@RickR, Yes, if he was live-switching this, feeding the projector into the switcher would be ideal. And that is what I do whenever possible.

In fact, it is not clear why Bilt is shooting this iso and then doing tedious post production and alignment/syns/PlualEyes, etc. etc. I typically do this kind of production as live-switch to "tape". If you control the presentation so you can add head and tail titles, etc. you walk away with a finished program ready for distribution. WAAAAAAY easier than doing it in post.
 
The reality is that with out worf clock sync on everything you are going to get some drift. You may not get a lot and probably only a frame or two over an hour at most with this equipment. Since you are cutting back and forth you have plenty of opportunity to slip things here and there to get them back in sync so depending on how crazy your workflow/ time line is you may not have a big problem at all.

As mentioned you are better off giving all the cameras the same audio guide track because the different distances will add an offset to the more distant cameras. You could do that with a wireless hop if cabling is a problem. I would feed all the cameras from you master audio recording device or mixer.

If everything is free running I would take the time to set all the internal clocks to the same time so that the time stamps will give you approximate sync. This will make things like PluralEyes work smoother.

PluralEyes is made to use audio track to sync video clips (a lot of low budget folks were/are using it to sync multiple audio tracks or dual system sound, but that is not what it was designed to do) so it is kind of a natural here IF you feed all the cameras the same audio feed.

We did something very much like this on a multi day event where there were two or more multi hour "shows" each day and there was no practical way to connect the cameras. With a few slips here and there it worked like a charm.
 
Steve -> THANKS! Yes I agree to get the PowerPoint File and use images from it, that's what I do.

Rick R & Richard Crowley-> THANKS! I see live switching and live audio mixdown would allow me to walk away with a finished project. Great idea. I don't know if I am up for it. I still have roving camera and still cameras to integrate. They could be done in post. I will need to think about this. Truly new ideas need a little time to settle with me...

Noiz2 -> THANKS! YES, everything you say about PluralEyes makes perfect sense. I will give some thought to getting all the cams the same audio scratch track from the master (Maxx).
 
I see live switching and live audio mix down would allow me to walk away with a finished project.
> Yes, but I wouldn't recommend live switching/ audio mixing for a OMB operation. Skilled switching and audio mixing folks would be wanted as well. 'We' used to do three-camera + PP presentations live switched continuing legal education seminars with a three person crew. Two of the cams were pretty much locked off.
PS- Mixing a panel discussion on the fly is not a job for the inexperienced.
 
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