stuttery 24p motion? how is this done

G

getyoursnackon

Member
how does one get the really stuttery 24p motion seen in cinema released movies?

do you just delete frames? (effect can be seen throughout http://www.apple.com/movies/wb/i_am_legend/i_am_legend-tlr1_h480p.mov [might have to open the link in quicktime, rather than view in your browser] -- effect can be noticed especially if you click through frames individually, also very noticeable where it shows the title "I Am Legend" at the end in the serif font -- very jerky motion)
 
Why would you want stuttery motion? That's counter-productive. Stutter is a limitation top filmmakers spend millions trying to hide - by following moving subjects precisely and hiding backgound stutter with selective blur, and by avoiding medium speed pans or camera movement. If your videos don't exhibit this distracting artifact, just thank the technology gods and focus on your story!
 
yeah, just speed up your shutter timing/exposure. (decrease the shutter angle or increase the fractional denominator: eg. from 1/48th of a sec to 1/250th of a sec, or from 180 degrees to 48 degrees) if you want that "private ryan" sort of jittery action film look thats all you have to do. youll start to get pretty noticeable results above 1/120th or so. and really noticeable results @ 1/250th. youll need more light (add light, open iris, remove correctional filters, perhaps use a little gain if needed) as Arson said because you are decreasing the amount of time tha the shutter is open so your CCD/film/CMOS/whatever isnt going to be exposed as long so your images will be noticeably darker if you dont do anything to let more light in to get the same desired exposure in less time.
 
you can also add a 3:2 pulldown in post. This allows you to not be married to a shutter shot or the look of 24p in a fast pan. Options in post are always a good thing.
 
grinner said:
you can also add a 3:2 pulldown in post. This allows you to not be married to a shutter shot or the look of 24p in a fast pan. Options in post are always a good thing.
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???? shooting 30p/i, or 24PN/A and using a pulldown to 24P will not affect the level of motion blur whatsoever.

While theres no doubt that 24 FPS has more inherent motion stutter than 30 FPS unless the exposure time is increased, I think he hes questioning how to push the phenonemon past the normalcy of what one would expect when shooting in 24p for film or video into the level of what is called the "stacatto effect". its all about the exposure time rather than the recording or playback frame rate which will not give you the same desired effect because it does not affect the motion blur of the sequential frames. Btu if you want to shoot with a 1/250th shutter using 30p it will give you the same (but slightly less) stacatto effect all private ryan like as if you did it with 24p. its just an effect that really has to be done in camera.
 
I didn't read anything about requiring motion blur but that can cartainly be done in post as well.
I am more of an editor than anything else so I tend to try to do it all in post. It gives me the most options.
 
..its the intraframe abscence or drastic reduction of motion blur that gives this particular effect , and it can be done in combination with reducing the framerate below 24FPS for more drastic effects. but to your point, converting straight 30fps to 24 can produce slightly jumpy footage. aaaaanyway, the staccto effect would be used in combination with a reduced frame rate down to say 12 or 15 FPS or so to produce the effect that the original poster is seeing. but what i think that the original poster does not realise is that the footage for the film does not actually have that effect, its likely that he is watching a trailer which is reduced in framerate, and of course downresed from its original size which reduces visual motion blur. im on a slow machine right now so i cant say for sure whether the web version of the trailer is actually framerate reduced(which i cant imagine it would be) or the more likely of the two options would be that his CPU just cant keep up with the trailers data rate so its skipping frames constantly. If he were to watch the SMALL version of the same trailer from the same site, im sure that he'll see it all play back perfectly smoothly @ 24fps with no apparent stacatto effect.
 
wes said:
people who shoot in 24p make me want to vomit.
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..interesting. so everyone who makes major motion pictures and television shows along with everyone in most major music video and commercial production houses makes you sick? weird.
 
i said shoot. Why shoot 24 frames when you can shoot a smoother pic incase you want to alter speeds and such. You can always shoot at a higher frame rate and convert to 24 and then deiinterlace. I think shooting at a low rate limits you tremendously.
 
wes said:
You can always shoot at a higher frame rate and convert to 24 and then deiinterlace. I think shooting at a low rate limits you tremendously.
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You're losing resolution every step of the way by doing this, not to mention considerable time in post production.
 
wes said:
i said shoot. Why shoot 24 frames when you can shoot a smoother pic incase you want to alter speeds and such. You can always shoot at a higher frame rate and convert to 24 and then deiinterlace. I think shooting at a low rate limits you tremendously.
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You haven't a clue what you're talking about.
 
I get where your coming from .. i really do ..but you just dont gather hydrogen and oxegen and shake them up in a jar trying to make water. Stick around and I'm sure youll learn theres lots of better ways to get things done.

I'll digress ..and suffice it to say that what your presenting isnt a new theory by any means but is one shared by many that are still young in thier careers, and I'm sure that at this point in your journey it seems logical to you. but in time you'll come to learn and understand why things are done the way they are, and that the only real limitations for us are found at the end of our search for truth , knowledge, and understanding.
 
wes said:
people who shoot in 24p make me want to vomit.
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And people who come out of the woodwork to leave trollish, confrontational posts like this irritate me profusely.



wes said:
i said shoot. Why shoot 24 frames when you can shoot a smoother pic incase you want to alter speeds and such. You can always shoot at a higher frame rate and convert to 24 and then deiinterlace. I think shooting at a low rate limits you tremendously.
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It "limits" you no more than using a screwdriver to drive a screw limits you. Using 60i for everything is like bringing only a hammer to work without figuring out FIRST whether you'll be using nails or screws. And sure, you COULD use a hammer to drive a screw, but it'll be a hundred times harder and you'll probably mangle the screws and the wood and your final result will be . . . less than ideal.

Thorough pre-production is indispenaible -- your final product should always be your paramount concern every step along the way. You should know what you intend your final product to be before you ever snap a single frame.

Therefore, you should have already chosen the frame rate which gives you the look you want. And if you know the frame rate your final product is going to be, then you should get there as early as possible.

Deciding your overall look only in post, and therefore sandbagging all through production to leave yourself "options," is the most backward and least productive way of going about things. Sure, you might decide that there are a few things you may wish to decide on later (like choosing between the ways an actor says a particular line, for example), but to leave huge chunks of your creative process undecided until post only, oh, triples the amount of overall work you'll have to do, and that's being generous. Waiting until post to make extremely important visual decisions also makes it almost certain that you won't have everything you need when you wrap production. And ON set, you'll be wasting a lot of time doing things you ultimately didn't need to do, and could have decided on WELL beforehand.

So, considering the extra work, the probability that you won't have everything you need (calling people back for reshoots is expensive -- or, if you just decide to do without, you're not getting the product you really want and are settling for something less), and, as others have pointed out, the copious quality hits you take by converting 60i to 24p, if what you intend your project to be is 24p or 24 fps, it makes absolutely NO sense not to shoot it that way to begin with if you can.
 
Well I guess it just comes down to the fact that hardly any of my final renders are ever 24p. It just comes down to what you are creating and 90% of the time, clients dont ask me to make the footage 24fps. Plus if you were to broadcast it, you would have to convert it.

Taken from the first site off google about 24p

"If you are required to deliver a 29.97 master, don't shoot 24p, and don't edit 23.98. Well, you can shoot 24P I suppose, as many cameras shoot 24P at 29.97fps...but shooting 24pA or other 24p format at 23.98 and editing at 23.98 is more of a headache than it is worth. Shooting 30p at 29.97 yeilds the same "film look" and yet makes editing and delivering a 29.97 master easy."

Who and what I shoot hasnt been established so why jump to conclusions that I have no right to say 24p makes me vomit. It does. I hate jittery video....there many other ways to go about making stuff look like film without having crappy looking pans.
 
Why don't you tell us what you shoot and show us some reel ?

Who and what I shoot hasnt been established so why jump to conclusions that I have no right to say 24p makes me vomit. It does. I hate jittery video....there many other ways to go about making stuff look like film without having crappy looking pans.
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But it isn't jittery when one knows how to execute it.

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Wes

There is no headache in shooting 24p / 24pa. There is no headache in making it to NTSC Standards. Where's the headache ?

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This thread is going to get interesting.
 
..and by "this thread is going to get interesting" .. john means that were only letting it go on because its for some reason amusing on some level and somewhere .. far ...far over the rainbow were hoping that youll come around. this whole subject is a dead horse many leagues under the sea by now for the worlds professionals but apparently its still haunts us all through legends and folklore. ..and the occasional halloween plastic charachters (at participating Mcdonalds only).


yeah, theres zero headache in working with 24p whatsoever once someone knows what they are doing with it. and if you know how to handle a camera then your pans wont look bad. ..again your saying that all the music videos and major commercials and TV shows and made for TV movies which are MADE FOR TV .. and are shot on 24p and converted (or not pending the singal) to 29.976 .. or all the regular films shot in 24p and shown converted or not for TV shouldnt be doing that ? .. why? do they look bad? do they stutter? are they jittery?

shooting 30p @ 29.976 does not yeild the same film look. i really dont know any professional that would agree with that, and thats why when professionals want a film look they shoot 24p. even if its convrted, it still looks different then stright 30p/i

..and if its really just a matter of what you are personally working on and whether or not it requires or would benefit from 24p then its really an out of place statement to blanket all 24p shooters as making you want to vomit, because doenst it come down to what THEY are shooting, and what THEIR project requires as well?

..sorry man, im going to have to point to johns former statement and simply agree that you have no real idea what your talking about. i mean .. cmon.. your googling for information on 24p, and relying on some nobodies ideas about 24p relevance just because its the first link? your traveling down a wonderland path where your going to find that if you stop and look around ..nobody is out there with you.

...look at the heart were only really trying to help you understand that what your saying isnt really sensible. not to point out that your lame or something, but to help you gain a better understanding of 24p and shatter the misconceptions that you have about working with it. at some point or other youll have to realise that your only limiting yourself by simply developing your own theories to live by and being closed off to understanding the way things really work concerning 24p.
 
wes said:
Well I guess it just comes down to the fact that hardly any of my final renders are ever 24p.
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Then don't shoot 24p. But for a project where the final product is supposed to be 24p (and that includes 24p in a 60i/60fps stream with pulldown added - see below), it's the right call. I don't see why it should make you "vomit" when other people are using the frame rate appropriate for their projects, even if it's not appropriate for yours.

It just comes down to what you are creating and 90% of the time, clients dont ask me to make the footage 24fps.
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Very true. See above. If the final project is supposed to be 24p, then it would be appropriate. Saying that people who shoot 24p make you "vomit" is ridiculous as people saying that if you DON'T shoot 24p for YOUR projects, where it's not appropriate, make THEM vomit.


Plus if you were to broadcast it, you would have to convert it.

Taken from the first site off google about 24p

"If you are required to deliver a 29.97 master, don't shoot 24p, and don't edit 23.98. Well, you can shoot 24P I suppose, as many cameras shoot 24P at 29.97fps...but shooting 24pA or other 24p format at 23.98 and editing at 23.98 is more of a headache than it is worth. Shooting 30p at 29.97 yeilds the same "film look" and yet makes editing and delivering a 29.97 master easy."
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This is spectacularly bad advice, but it IS a persistent myth that still makes the rounds.

30p is not the same as 24p. It doesn't look the same as 24p. It doesn't move the same as 24p. If you decide later that you want the project to be 24p, you can't convert without terrible stutter and ghosting around any object, so making a 24p DVD is out of the question.

If you want the look of 24p -- the movement, the cadence, the film-like feel -- then shoot 24p and edit 24p. The ONLY thing you then have to do to "convert" it or conform it to 29.97 for a broadcast master is render it with a 2:3 pulldown inserted, which is usually a checkbox or a selection in a drop-down menu. It takes no more time to do this than to render 29.97 footage as 29.97 -- and in fact, a number of applications simply do it automatically if you select a 29.97 render. The look and feel of 24p is preserved, and there are absolutely no issues with broadcast, exactly as there haven't been since they started showing 24 fps movies on 29.97 TV. Ever detected a problem watching a movie on TV or VHS?

But there CAN be problems if you edit 24p material on a 29.97 timeline. Any type of movement you add, like motion text, or moving picture in picture, or anything at all, will move at 29.97 while your underlying footage's motion cadence is 23.976. There will be detectable mismatch (look at any number of used car commercials shot on a DVX at 24p and then lots of text is added by people who have no clue what they're doing). Also, transitions may suffer, because there are 2.5 times as many motion stops between 29.97 (which is actually 59.94) and 23.976, and a fade out (for example) might not look right, and will only accentuate any possible motion stutter.

So, if the look and feel of 24p is what you want (and maybe you don't, but if it is, as it is for a lot of people), then shoot 24p and edit it as 24p.


Who and what I shoot hasnt been established so why jump to conclusions that I have no right to say 24p makes me vomit.
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That's not what you said. You said that PEOPLE who SHOOT 24p make you vomit.

I repeat -- it may not be right for what you do, but it is for many.


It does. I hate jittery video....there many other ways to go about making stuff look like film without having crappy looking pans.
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And there are ways to get non-crappy-looking pans without compromising the tenor and quality of all of the rest of the footage.
 
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