Steadicam Jr question.

S

SC_Erwin

Member
How do you focus when using a steadicam or glidecam? I know that these products have nothing to do with focusing in and of themselves, but I'm interested in the actual mechanics of how it is done (i.e. where are your hands...). I shoot primarily in 24pA and have thought about purchasing one of these, but I'm not sure of how functional it will be in 24p due to poor autofocus (I'm not sure I have enough arms and hands to do everything). For that matter, how would you zoom? Is it realistic to use a zoe or other remote zoom with a steadicam jr/glidecam? Also, is the steadicam jr sufficient for a DVX100A / mic / light / and maybe a quickstream?

Thanks for looking...
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

On the lowend systems like I have Glidecam V8, I use a fixed focus say 4 feet, with the bigger more formal units they have a Camera assistant pulling focus/zoom by way of a wireless remote...there is a fellow on this site who is working on a possible wireless focus unit... ::)
The pro version of these wireless unit are huge$$$$$

Regarding zoom you can put a zoom control on to the verticle post of the rig, that is mainly used to set up the framing for the shot once focal length is achieved it is left alone.

Realize that stabalizer rigs are best used at a minimal zoom length and to simulate a dolly...great for following in a walk and talk situation.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

generally you only use one at a set distance so that you can keep the subject in sharp focus, or most people shoot wide enough to make everything in focus, or if youve got the money you pay a focus puller to pull th focus for you either very carefully on the cam, or with a wireless remote focus puller.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

It doesn't sound like these units are useable for event work (weddings, etc.). Do you find that to be the case? I'm debating jumping into that field and I'm looking for a good handheld solution for reception video work.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

..sure they are . you just need to be good at what you do. youve got to remember that steadicam operation is not quite the same as a tripod..it takes ALOT of practise to become reasonably qualified to call oneself a steadicam operator, and even more practice yet to be really any good at it. once you really become proficient enough using one, youll find that its second nature to frame up and focus and then take your gliding shots with ease. focusing really inst an issue as youll be shooting so wide most of the time that as i said all is in focus, but if your good and quick , you learn to sneak some nice shallow dof shots in there as well. and if your standing still, of course you can just operate the cam as normal while being careful not to tip it all around. its not easy. youd probably want a tripod for wedding type stuff, if your doing any sort of cinematic approach, and use the steadicam for intermediate shots to cut in with all the static footage .


p.s. bah! taylor you beat me to it. i hate that when i double post someones same comments, but i guess its only reinforcement.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

Stabalizers are very delicate and hard to operate units, as in an enviroment like a wedding etc, all action is not predictable (drunk bestman smashing into camera..blowing shot).
I would wait for Jarred's review of the DVrig, I think that would be you best and most flexible option.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

[quote author=SC_Erwin link=board=Links;num=1075920090;start=0#0 date=02/04/04 at 10:41:30]Also, is the steadicam jr sufficient for a DVX100A / mic / light / and maybe a quickstream?
[/quote]

The Steadicam JR lists a weight limit of about 4 pounds. The DVX by itself is about 4 and a half, and once you outfit it like you're talking about, you're going to be closer to six or seven. Some people have reported successfully flying the DVX on a Steadicam JR, but it definitely far exceeds the posted weight limits.

As for focus, you don't -- you set the camera on full wide angle, use fixed-focus, and basically everything from 2' to infinity is in focus.

As for zoom, the only way to do that would be to use an external controller. Stabilizers like this are typically a 2-hand affair, one to support the weight and the other to point the camera where you want it to go. You could maybe rig a zoom controller so it fits where the thumb of the weight-supporting hand goes. I've got a GlideCam 4000 and a Zoe zoom controller, but I can't get the Zoe to fit on the post of the GlideCam. If you were to build something like the homemade zoom controller featured in the articles on this site, you could custom-make a mounting rig for it.

But zooming would definitely reveal a hole in the infinite-focus strategy -- as you zoom in, you'll lose focus.

For wedding/event work, I'd say you're probably asking for trouble by using a handheld stabilizer. Those events can go for hours, yet most people have had all they can stand of a handheld stabilizer after about 10 minutes -- any longer than that and your arm starts to burn. If you want a portable stabilizer for long events, you'll probably have to shell out the big bucks for a vest system, more like $6000 or $8000 or so.

Or, go with a modified handheld strategy -- use the Sanford & Davis Steadi-Stick, which is a belt that has a pole & platform you set the camera on. Takes all the weight off your arm & shoulders & back, and you can use it for hours with no fatigue. But it doesn't float the camera like a GlideCam does, it's just a platform to set the camera on so you don't have to carry it.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

I know I'm going to get shot for saying this, but I used the DVX100 on a Steadicam JR last week and ran it in {gasp} auto focus. But, let me caveat that statement by saying that I am a rank beginner with the Steadicam JR. I was shooting a promotional video for the childrens ministry at my church, and was following kids running around all over the place. They were so unpredictable, I didn't have much choice.

The shoot was three hours long, with many rest breaks (6 lbs. on the end of your arm is a killer, when you're a newbie). What was the end result? Actually, quite acceptable. I was indoors, and I think I had the aperature at about 2.8. Focus worked great for a vast majority of the shots. The biggest problem I had was with headroom.

As the gentlemen said above, practice appears to be needed in a big way. I'm glad I got to work with the JR on a non-critical (that is, non-paying) job. I'd want to have a lot more practice before using this at a wedding, unless I was just looking for some B-Roll.

--David
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

After using the Stedicam Jr, Glidecam and DVrigRro, each has its own strengths. For pure stability (for running etc) I find the Glidecam to give the smoothest video, but unless your hurculeas, you can only operate it for a few minutes at a time and you wake up very sore the next morning. Once your wrists get tired, your muscles enter that "shakey" mode so it defeats the purpose.

The dvrig pro gives smooth results for everything except running/stairs, but the good thing is you can use it all day, as the weight is supported by your shoulder and waist. you can actually take both hands off the rig if you want. If you get hired as an operator for a feature short and the director wants the handheld look, the dvrig is the way to go, as it by far is the best shoulder mount I have used. If they want a stedicam look, your gonna hafta go with the glidecam or stedicam, but man are you in for a world of pain.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! And thank you specifically Jarred for the review of those three options.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

I think there needs to be some dstinction between a harness mounted system and a hand mounted system. I have recently modified my Glidecam V8 which is a front mounted harness stabalizer to a backmounted system.

In it's frontmounted config, It was really hard on my back and I could only operate for 15 minutes max...but now with the backmount I can go for probably an hour. www.moorefilms.com/backmount.htm

Any stabalizer rig is going to be hard physically and operationally, it really depends on the application of use. The hand mounted systems will kill ya, if using one make sure you have recovery time after the shot, before the next setup.

I plan on using mine rig as a poor mans dolly, but I am still very much in practice mode and don't intend to be a moderate operator with it for at lease 3-6 months. Having spoken to a few pro operators...it takes years and each shot is alway a new challenge.
The form at http://homebuiltstabilizers.com/ is a great inspiration and learning ground.
I am begging a senior stabalizer operators to create a video showing a split screen video showing camera POV with a second camera following the operator. When and if this happens it will explain alot of the issues regarding tricks and operational techniques.

A weird movie to watch on DVD is the Russian Ark all shot steadicam all one unedited take with 1000 person cast. The film is weird but the Making of...is really bizzare and amazing(that russian comrade kissing thing kind of weirds me out). The operator used a new type of backmount with a Steadicam, the backmount is from Montreal and is $9000 for the vest only. My hat is off to the operator...his work is spectacular!!!

I hope in the next few weeks to have a hack video of some of my attempted operating technique in progress.

"Be the dolly, think like a dolly" "Be the dolly, think like a dolly"
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

So Taylor/Jarred you seem to be quite pleased with the Glidecam (V8)?! What do you think about the Hollywood Pro-Lite Series?! (or their G.T.X. wich should also be suitable)
Although I don't plan to always use it I'm currently looking for a stabilzer that would be suitable for the DVX100 together with my pana anamorphic and Chrosziel matte box and just recently "stumbled" accross the Hollywood Lite products...

Thanks for any tips/insight! ;)
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

What do you think about the Hollywood Pro-Lite Series
Click to expand...
Well it looks like it would handle the camera, I went with the glidecam V8 because you can upgrade the support arm spring to handle heavier cameras. Each system is differnet and has it's own qwirks, if I was to do it all again..I would probably build one from Cody's plans as then you know it inside out and can easily customize it, (Flames, chrome mags, lift kit). ;D

I intend this year to modify the sled on my system...to be more like Charles rig.
Look at http://homebuiltstabilizers.com/ find Charles latest version. I think he will possibly be selling his custom made unit...and it is beautiful....and a great guy and supporter to newbies like me.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

Yeah I know *sigh* ... the final built version looks very cool too (besides seeming to work great ;o) in the vids on his website...
However I doubt I'd be able to assemble something like this without much help... and well I'm just too lazy. ;-P
(so if anybody would build one and sell it.. *g*)
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

Thanks for the kind words Taylor ::) Much appreciated. I was wondering which of my pasts rigs do you like? I'm curious because I don't have my recent rig up as yet. It's almost done and will be up on the site soon.

I will also put up a pic of the front cover of the book. Looks pretty damn good ;D

As for a training video, as I told you before one will be available soon, sometime this fall. Charles Papert will be doing one. So look out for it. If you can get your hands on the EFP training video then go ahead. I still it's the best video to date. Though it's old it still has some lessons that all operators still use today. And that Ted Churchill, what a guy.
I'm also anticipating Charles Papert's video and will definately incorporate new stuff, so just hang in there.

Let me know if you need any more help in modifying your V-8. As I mentioned before, I could probably go to town on your rig :D
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

Hi Charles it was the 8th and 9th rig that look amazing...very impressive. I will truely be tracking you down on the best way to redo my sled.
I really like the bogen plate idea for the balancing with the monitor and battery.

Charles can you please explain the different type of support arms, as I know Steadicam arm can be pushed up or down and held in place with no right hand support, as well having quite a range in it's movement.

Charles have you ever heard of anyone operating with these on...http://www.eyetop.net/products/camera/default.asp
I got an email from someone who wants me to do a mod on his vest like I had done with mine to create a back mount :o
You had also mentioned somewhere that you might be selling your old rig...is that still happening?
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

"Charles can you please explain the different type of support arms, as I know Steadicam arm can be pushed up or down and held in place with no right hand support, as well having quite a range in it's movement. "

That is true with all but the lower end steadicam arms. The technical name given to such a design is called Iso-Elastic which is a trademark own by Steadicam manufacturer Tiffen. This is a series of springs and pullies in combination with some mathematical equations, will produce the leave-it-where-you-place effect in the arm. There are couple of formulas on te HBS website that show you how to achieve a similiar effect. All thanks to two of our members on the forum board.

Now for the different type of arms. As I understand you mean design as well as function.

1. Single action arm which is simply a one spring arm system like the one you have Taylor. Though not an Iso-Elastic it still produces smooth shots. A one spring arm can be made to work as an iso elastic arm. A good example is the steadicam SK and Provid arm both having one spring with vertical adjustments using pullies and wires.

2. Double action arm which is simply a two arm spring system like that of the glidecam gold and the higher end steadicam systems. The magiqcam uses this design as well. This design gives better stability and smoother shots. Think of it as a human arm with all the joints. With the extra arm and spring(s) the vertical bounce which is more common in hand held photography is dampened more, as it passes  through the arm spring systems. This is my prefered design.

Some arm uses one spring system in each arm. Others uses two like the the GPI pro, my favorite and the one I used in my design ( you've see it Taylor). The GPI is unique in that it doesn't use any pullies or cables but instead uses the geometry to achieve the desired effect. The whole purpose is to avoid friction where ever it is present. So without the cables and pullies you can avoid friction 99%. The system is so easy to work with because it is simple yet complex. The one major reason I love this arm is that it makes it easier to change springs in any combination one chooses.
No other arm offers that except all the knock-offs that have started springing into the market ( on offense to other manufacturers)

Some arm uses anything from one spring to three sets of springs in each arm. The steadicam uses three in their high-end arms as well as other manufacturers. Remember, the more springs you have the more things that can go wrong and the more friction that can be induced. Spells - lots of parts :)

" Charles have you ever heard of anyone operating with these on...http://www.eyetop.net/products/camera/default.asp "

Never heard of this and I do not find it practical in any situation. But that's me.

"You had also mentioned somewhere that you might be selling your old rig...is that still happening? "

Unfortunately, I don't have these rigs any more. Most where broken down and reused into my present system. Others were scrapped.
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

Charles as always great info from your portable knowledge bank ;D
The arm you have made, what costs are involved in making something like that? Due to the level of flexilibility with a support arm like that were you can change springs for different camera weights and having a leave it where you place it mode...and low maientence. Like a good frienship. :P
 
Re: Steadicam Jr question.

" Charles as always great info from your portable knowledge bank "

Again, just learned experience Taylor. I'm always learning new things about this device. It never seems to stop.  :)

"The arm you have made, what costs are involved in making something like that?"

It all depends on the materials used and its cost, whose doing the job and how friendly you are to that person doing the job for you;) workshop time cost, finding the materials needed should not be a problem or all that expensive. Well, if you don't decide to go for Carbon alloy materials then it will not be that expensive.

Finding the right person to the job and charge a good price will be on you doing a look-around-and-ask situation. If you live in a small town with machining workshops , like I do, then you might get it cheaper than what the bigger cities are offering.

"... Due to the level of flexilibility with a support arm like that were you can change springs for different camera weights and having a leave it where you place it mode...and low "

The pro doesn't offer the leave-it-where-you-place-it effect. It's another design concept but offer similiar effects. Though a wonderful idea, it is not a must have feature. then again, it all depends on the operator. For me, I'll choose the Pro arm over the steadicam arm any day. ;D


BTW Taylor. I was looking at your v-8 arm and it looks to me that you a two spring inside that arm. I thought it came with one spring? I'm wondering because the arm doesn't have space to place the spring side-by-side. Again, I could be wrong.
 
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