sound editing

Totally Barry! I'll never profess to be skilled but am trying to understand and grasp this AUDIO/SOUND DESIGN/SCORE layer in filmmaking;

With LUPER (no I'm not saying it rocked; I'm just using an example of my goals with that) I did the following;

1. Used a LAYER of ROOM TONE
2. Used FADE IN/OUTS on each AUDIO TRACK or EVENT even if for a micro second
3. Used a SCORE
4. Used Ambient Noises such as WIND, DOGS, CROWS, GHOULS, RATTLING METAL...
5. NORMALIZING THE TRACKS AND/OR COMBINING CHANNELS

Not perfect and not sure of it's the way; but I'm happy with what my 'hack-ass-amatuer' ways is producing.
 
Thank you guys for taking my rant in the spirit in which it was intended, really. Wabbit, your posts are always helpful - they've certainly helped me. Barry, well, there isn't really anything to say. You've probably inspired a generation of digital moviemakers. And Jon, you're just a zombie, but I love you man!!
 
Aw, I love you man.

See, this is why I never want to win an Academy Award. I just know the same damn thing will happen...

:)

Matt
 
I come from an extensive audio background and one of the quickest way to solve an audio problem like the one that was described is to use a Gate/Compressor on the audio mic's. The Gate, set to a relatively quick roll off, will close the signal when no one is speaking and immediatly get rid of that hum and other low ambient noise. The compressor will then boast the low audio signals that exceed the Gate limit as well as lower the highs to give you a nice balanced audio recording. You can also by-pass the hardware and do this in an audio editing program like Peak, Audition, Pro Tools etc... it just depends on what your specific needs are and what you have available.
 
^^^^

See, I never do this because you can totally hear the gate. If there is noise all over the track you will still hear it if you don't use a noise reduction filter. On the feature I'm working on I tried this gate trick, and it totally didn't work. I had to do some serious noise reduction, and create new backround tracks from the existing production tracks, and make new ones from recording them myself, or pulling them from my library. It's quite a laborious task to do.


Matt,

If you ever win an Academy award, don't forget to thank me. If I ever win one, I'll thank you....and then I'll give it back. I HATE the idea of award shows. They are nothing but ego boosters. Yeah, it's cool to recognize really good sound editors, and great actors, but so what? That's what they get paid for. When was the last time you saw an award show for Doctors (and the award for best hear surgeon goes to....), or Tech support, or Garbage men, or house painters...man, now I'm gettin revved up about this off topic subject.

-Dave
 
I've gone the route of hiring a sound guy for my 90 min. doc. So far he's done wonders. My question is two-fold:

1. How much sound should I expect him to add, as effects, ambient sound, dialogue editing?

2. How many hours (ballpark) should this take? This is a guerilla film, but the sound is still pretty good from the get-go.

BTW, what's the going rate for a professional sound person?
 
hype

hype

a lot of all this is hype. Its not as complicating as it soUnds to do a nice audio design. my first attempt was good.

This is what you do. Try to get good audio on set by putting blankets on walls and using great mic and mixer. In post its like they say nothing is finished, its abandoned. Get a mic for ADR and hook up your monitor and mic with the edited movie inside your car. Put the car in your garage. now you got a nice booth. Get the actors to redo their lines along with watching themselves do it on screen. Bend a clothes hanger into a lollypop shape and put a pantyhose over it. This will filter air noise to the mic. Redo each piece of dialogue like 5 times until u get a perfect match. then go pop these lines on a track in the edit. They will be very very clean. play around. fade in and out on ends of each sound clip. Take the time to adjust all re recorded dialogue and match it up with the film.

Now grab your DAP and go get foley sound. foot steps room tone etc. once you got what u want lay it out on another track. then pop on a uni-directional mmic on that DAT and record sound effects close up in a clean quiet environment. do all these things along with the footage you are watching. pop these fx on another track. THere you go. now you got a clean audio design. Pop music on the 4th track. now your movie will sound as close to hollywood as it can for $0. (if you already have a dat and an omni and uni mic)

Now go do the mix. Adjust each audio clip so that it all doesnt sound in the same tone. adjust levels on each audio clip. make sounds go left to right, quiter or louder. Put filters on sounds. pop in some reverb. do what ever you have to to each sound with the tools provided to you with your editing program.

Spend a month on your audio design and it will sound like hollyood. you will need a dat and the 2 mics. THERE YOU GO. YOU CAN CAREFULLY RECREATE EVERY SOUND IN YOUR FILM AND MAKE IT SOUND GREAT. THIS IS THAT BIG BUDGET FILMS DO. ALL YOU WILL NEED IS YOURSELF AND PAY YOUR KID BROTHER $2 AN HOUR TO HOLD THE MIC WHILE YOU MAKE THE NOISE.

NOW GO OUT THERE AND MAKE A MOVIE WITH HIGH YET CHEAP AUDIO PRODUCTION VALUE. MOST PEOPLE DONT PAY ATTENTION TO AUDIO DESIGN AND THEIR FILM SUCKS BECAUSE NO ONE NOTICES LOW QUALITY VIDEO BUT EVERYONE NOTICES BAD SOUND.

WHO EVER DOESNT BELIEVE WHAT I JUST SAID IS TRUE AND DOABLE IS BULL OF CRAP. yOU CAN MAKE A GREAT FILM FOR $0 AND THE REASON WHY MOST PEOPLE DONT DO IT IS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THE HYPE THAT TO DO SOMETHING RIGHT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A LOT OF MONEY. NOT TRUE IN TODAYS WORLD. AND AS ROBERT RODRIGUEZ SAYS. "FIX EVERYTHING NOT WITH MONEY BUT WITH CREATIVITY" NO ONE WILL NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE AND ALL IT COSTS IS YOUR TIME. DO IT. LEARN FROM IT. AND NEXT TIME DO IT BETTER. NOW SHUT UP AND GO MAKE YOUR MOVIE.
 
Exactly what I've been trying to tell a friend of mine. He keeps saying that he doensn't want to put a lot of work in our project if it's not going to be shot on film.

:angry: that's bs. I actually am beginning to hate film now just because of this. I mean I actually like the look of things I've seen shot on video, done right, CC, good sound all of that, MORE than some bigger budget stuff.

I mean we have the means to shoot on film, because he goes to columbia in Chicago,IL and can process the stuff there. But it's still expensive to shoot that way, not to mention he's got a Bolex camera. It's an older style where you actually have to measure the distance from your subject to focus it. Plus it's manual wind. That can kind of make it more difficult to sync sound, since you never have a solid frame rate.
 
hey reflex I went to Columbia. By the way if he shoots on film and then telecinies it at columbia. it will look like shi*!!! columbia has the worst telecinie machine in the world. THe bolex sucks cause its a non sync camera. dont tell me that youre shooting on the wind up version. tell him to throw the bolex away and shoot on video.

I am pretty pissed at columbia. u pay high tuition and they give you WW2 equipment. and they want like $40 for 200 ft 16mm negative? or at least thats what someone told me. THIEVES

school really sucks. they introduce film to you and tell you that this is what movies get shot on. then all the students get intimidated and rather shoot on a wind up shi* cam then 24p.

and all these kids are obsessed with grain and resolution when the rest of the world cant ever tell the difference. THis is why hollywood doesnt want to hire people out of film schools.
 
Camera Assistants Are Paid Well To Use Measuring Tape

Camera Assistants Are Paid Well To Use Measuring Tape

reflex said:
It's an older style where you actually have to measure the distance from your subject to focus it.
Click to expand...
But, what is the other alternative? You measure distance for any film camera.
On bigger movies, camera assistants are paid $450+ per day for using one of these:
cinemasupplies_1840_27203328

Keson 50' Fiberglass Tape Measure shows both feet and meters.
http://store.yahoo.com/cinemasupplies/kes50fibtapm.html
 
?

?

mroczkowski83 said:
I am pretty pissed at columbia. u pay high tuition and they give you WW2 equipment. and they want like $40 for 200 ft 16mm negative? or at least thats what someone told me. THIEVES
Click to expand...
Friend, you often talk about the Robert Rodriguez approach to filmmaking in your other posts. Did you realize RR used a WW2-era Arriflex camera to shoot El Mariachi? One of the best parts of the medium is being able to take an old camera with a new lens and the latest film stock and still capture incredible images.

An older camera may lack certain things filmmakers have come to enjoy today (quiet cameras namely) that may force location sound into being unusable... But, Robert Rodriguez recorded sound for El Mariachi with a Radio Shack microphone onto cassette tape after the "filming" was completed.

Additionally, if Columbia College is only charging $40 for 200' of 16mm, then they are offering a bargain. That's more than 50% less than regular prices from Kodak.

Hope this helps.
 
Dave is Right... Sound is often an after thought for most indie movie makers, the "We'll fix it in the mix attitude" Has been adopted by many. It often doesnot work! Garbage in Garbage out is usually what you have to deal with. You need trained eyes to shoot, you also need trained ears to record and edit audio.
The end result will only sound as good as your trained ears would allow it!!!
Audio is an art, if you want to have a consistent sound track give it to a professional, or take the time to really understand what's involved in altering individual sound bites with the proper tools.

Matnik
 
mroczkowski83 THe bolex sucks cause its a non sync camera. dont tell me that youre shooting on the wind up version. tell him to throw the bolex away and shoot on video. [/QUOTE said:
Watch your mouth!!! If you can not make great images with a Bolex and todays modern film stocks then you should have listened to your mother and been a plumber!
I bought a used Bolex for $400 and went out the next day and shot pick-ups for a movie that was shot with a $40k Arri SR3 set-up and the footage matched shot for shot. The independent film movement did not start with the VX-1000, it started with the Bolex!!

Back to topic. The creative use of sound is so important to the impact of modern movies and above posters are right, bad sound is worse than bad picture. However, in this forum we do have a large cross section of creative content creators and the continium of budgets that we all work with is vast. I believe that as filmmakers we all should make a consentrated effort to improve the creative us of sound in our work.

If one is at the guerilla level, there are many multi-track sound programs available at every budget level. Get the best you can afford and learn how to use it. Study everything you can about the creative use of sound then use the applications you have chosen the best you can.

Now, the second you move beyond the "guerilla", there is no better investment in the quality of your projects than in sound professionals. I can not express the importance of having a good location sound mixer. The best invesment you can make is in good location sound, period. Nothing will **** up your post budget quicker than bad location sound. Take the time, spend the money to get it right.

As an aside, the cheapest money you will spend is to take your sound guy on your locations scouts. Then listen to him!!!

After production, negotiate a post deal with a good sound house. On paper, it may seem like a lot of $$, but actually, relative to other areas of post production, the $$ to labor ratio for sound is cheap.

Try to find any great film that sounds, "Just ok". There are none.
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Rosestar said:
As an aside, the cheapest money you will spend is to take your sound guy on your locations scouts. Then listen to him!!!
Click to expand...

LOL, gotta say I have been on locations scouts for most of movies I do sound for...nobody listens. Even those that have burned before (short memories I guess).

Great advice though Rosestar. Wish someone would take it. :)

Rosestar said:
Try to find any great film that sounds, "Just ok". There are none.
Click to expand...

Modern Times. :)
 
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