Sound Devices MM-1 + Tascam DR-40 or Tascam DR-701D

Heezzi said:
It looks very interesting! I wonder how the pres hold up to the Sound Devices?
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As Rick R wrote they should be the same as the ones in the F8 :) That's also what Rob Rives says in the B&H "Zoom F4 first look" video. For judging the F4 preamplifiers he refers to their F8 video where they do a comparison between the audio quality of the F8 and a Sound Devices 688.

You can find that video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM6VOEYpm4g

Here are higher quality samples of the comparison recordings:

Sound Devices 688: https://soundcloud.com/bhproaudio/sounddevices-688

Zoom F8: https://soundcloud.com/bhproaudio/zoomf8

Some have commented that they do hear a noticeable difference between the 688 and F8, but only you can decide whether that difference is worth the extra money in your particular case.

Curtis Judd has quite a few videos on the F8 and he now also owns a Sound Devices 633

You may find the following videos helpful:

Zoom F8 review Wrapup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSVsZFVPhxY

Zoom F8 Input Limiters (As mentioned by Rick R): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYe-0cO2M8w

Sound Devices 633: Why Do Pros Use Gear Like This?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDEp34fkbQ4

He's got many interesting videos in his channel, also a few more on the F8.

Good luck on chosing your gear! :)
 
HJD said:
As Rick R wrote they should be the same as the ones in the F8 :) That's also what Rob Rives says in the B&H "Zoom F4 first look" video. For judging the F4 preamplifiers he refers to their F8 video where they do a comparison between the audio quality of the F8 and a Sound Devices 688.

You can find that video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM6VOEYpm4g

Here are higher quality samples of the comparison recordings:

Sound Devices 688: https://soundcloud.com/bhproaudio/sounddevices-688

Zoom F8: https://soundcloud.com/bhproaudio/zoomf8

Some have commented that they do hear a noticeable difference between the 688 and F8, but only you can decide whether that difference is worth the extra money in your particular case.

Curtis Judd has quite a few videos on the F8 and he now also owns a Sound Devices 633

You may find the following videos helpful:

Zoom F8 review Wrapup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSVsZFVPhxY

Zoom F8 Input Limiters (As mentioned by Rick R): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYe-0cO2M8w

Sound Devices 633: Why Do Pros Use Gear Like This?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDEp34fkbQ4

He's got many interesting videos in his channel, also a few more on the F8.

Good luck on chosing your gear! :)
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I heard some of these yesterday and it difference is noticeable with the sound devices. Are these pres in the 633 the same as in the MP-1 and MixPre?
 
Heezzi said:
I heard some of these yesterday and it difference is noticeable with the sound devices. Are these pres in the 633 the same as in the MP-1 and MixPre?
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Perhaps other people can chime in as well, but I don't think anyone other than Sound Devices know exactly what difference there is between the preamps in their various products. When they released the USBPre 2 they wrote about its preamplifiers "Their topology is shared with Sound Devices' award-winning 744T Digital Audio Recorder" - but who knows exactly what that means? Anyway the 688 and 633 were released later than the MP-1 and MixPre-D, so some components may be newer, but I've almost only heard praise of their preamps. You could call Sound Devices and ask them, but I doubt they would answer your above question with a direct yes or no. Perhaps it would be possible for you to rent whatever equipment you're considering buying and put it through its paces and then decide what you want to do? Good luck :)
 
I always get a kick out of threads like this; folks looking for the very best audio on the cheap. I did it myself for a long time having owned several economy recorders. I finally choked up the money and went with all SD gear and haven't looked back. But what is rarely discussed is that the useability features and build quality are equally important when in use. Given good technique and good mics, the more recent recorders, especially from Tascam in my experience, produce very decent audio. Maybe not SD good, but plenty good enough for the typical DVXUser member. I like great sound, but for me, reliability and useability are much more important in the field.
 
ggrantly said:
I always get a kick out of threads like this;
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Kick this guy out! How dare anyone advocate for quality...

To answer a few questions SD does have different electronics for some of the devices. I believe they dropped the transformers on the recorder pre's. I wouldn't bet my life on it but I remember talk at the time that some folks preferred the older pre's.

That said I also have never heard anyone complain about the quality, the preference was one of those glaze on the icing on the cake type of things.

I have been keeping up with threads about the F8 on some of the forums aimed more at working professional sound folks and the reports are mixed but on the good side. The build seems to be quite good structurally. It apparently has the same issues with paint as the lower end stuff they make has, labels and such wearing off. This was an issue with the H4 et al. After a few months of heavy use the screened labels and symbols would be worn off on the most used buttons.
The other big issues are digital limiters and some functions that are not so well designed such as having to use the short cut "STOP +5" to clear peak indicators. Most recordists are not going to touch "stop" during a take no mater how safe you say it is to do so. But many of these things are firmware fixable and some of the early issues have already been fixed with firmware updates.

Zoom seems determined to make a product professionals will use and have been on the forums giving updates and listening to issues.

It has been used on a few lower budget features. shorts and so far the opinions are pretty positive.

I have a MixPre and it was a great investment. But it's 4X + to get F8 functionality from anywhere else. Many that are using the F8 are using it as a recorder and are putting a mixer in front. That "fixes" many of the issues people had.

For FX work I think it's a natural and will probably be my next recorder. For production I think it depends. If you are mostly low budget stuff that might be a bit more flexible with new equipment surprises then it's probably a good choice. If I was doing a bunch of serious budget projects where if a delay is your on you it's your last day then I'm going with a rock like SD.

So if your day rate with equipment is over $1,000 you should probably look at the F8 as more of a cheap emergency backup than a primary recorder. If your all in day rate is under $500 then the F8 is right in your wheel house. Between those two is where you need to do a lot of soul searching and a real look at how you work and what your needs are.
 
ggrantly said:
I always get a kick out of threads like this; folks looking for the very best audio on the cheap. I did it myself for a long time having owned several economy recorders. I finally choked up the money and went with all SD gear and haven't looked back. But what is rarely discussed is that the useability features and build quality are equally important when in use. Given good technique and good mics, the more recent recorders, especially from Tascam in my experience, produce very decent audio. Maybe not SD good, but plenty good enough for the typical DVXUser member. I like great sound, but for me, reliability and useability are much more important in the field.
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Even when using good technique, one can have noisy recordings. At that point, it is the equipment. I own a vocal mic that costs $2500 dollars and a pre amp that runs $1000 and the sound is pristine. Very low noise This is what I am used to. So when I do an recording on a piece of low cost equipment, it will bother me because I am not used to hearing high noise. Given that I know next to nothing in field recording compared to studio audio, one has to ask questions. I am used to buying good equipment piece by piece, so I ask questions. After I am done buying a new pre amp, I will get a new recorder.
 
Heezzi said:
Even when using good technique, one can have noisy recordings. At that point, it is the equipment. I own a vocal mic that costs $2500 dollars and a pre amp that runs $1000 and the sound is pristine. Very low noise This is what I am used to. So when I do an recording on a piece of low cost equipment, it will bother me because I am not used to hearing high noise. Given that I know next to nothing in field recording compared to studio audio, one has to ask questions. I am used to buying good equipment piece by piece, so I ask questions. After I am done buying a new pre amp, I will get a new recorder.
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My point wasn't to be critical of those that don't have the budget for pro gear versus economy gear. I started with economy gear. Most (Most!) of the folks participating on this board are small operators that are trying to improve, and participate here to hone their craft. Me included. What you say about using top quality gear is true, the best gear CAN make better recordings than economy equipment. But really, most entry level pros can get by nicely with economy gear unless they run up against a mismatch like a low output shotgun and weak preamps. How good is good enough?

Everyone here wants clean audio, but it happens again and again here; when folks compare economy recorders they just seem to forget that in the field, useability is everything. Without an easy to use interface for the situation, the best recorder isn't worth much. Likewise, bad build quality will leave you dead in the water. My point is that you can strive for that little bit of audio quality between one cheapo recorder and the next, but if you miss the take, the best preamps in the world don't mean squat.
 
Heezzi said:
How does a Shure FP-33 compare at this point?
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The MixPre has two input channels. The SD 302 and FP33 are three channel mixers. The 302 is a few more $ and has a lower profile. One nice feature the FP33 does have is independent mic/line output switching. FWIW, I had an FP32 in the 1990s which held up well to environmental and civil 'abuse'.
 
Rick R said:
The MixPre has two input channels. The SD 302 and FP33 are three channel mixers. The 302 is a few more $ and has a lower profile. One nice feature the FP33 does have is independent mic/line output switching. FWIW, I had an FP32 in the 1990s which held up well to environmental and civil 'abuse'.
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So for 2016, it too noisy, or no?

When it comes to pres..
SD 302 > MixPre > FP-33?

Thanks.
 
I listened to one of the older Shure mixers, may not have been the 33 but same family, and I found it quite noisy. One (I think the 24 but?) is actually a sound devices MixPre rebranded for Shure.

The electronics in recent years has taken some large leaps in low noise so I would test drive older gear, especially if you are looking for low noise. SD preamps are very low noise, and there are a number of others out there that are also very good and quiet. SD I think has the best feature + Quality package for the price. There are a couple of other "mixers" (with two channels in and out these are really more Mic Pres than mixers) in the MixPre range but most don't have some of the nice mixer like features like tone, slate mic, return audio monitoring, and limiters.

You should also realize that the field versions of studio gear are generally over 2X the price at the same quality point. It's a specialized market and it needs to run off batteries for a decent length of time.
The portable recorders have kind of broken that rule because of mass marketing to musicians and DSLR filmmakers, but once you hit non consumer categories like mixers and mic pres $$$.

So new the lowest priced "good" mic pre for field use is in the $1K range, where you cold pick up 4+ channels of "good" mic pres in a small mixer that needs AC power for about 1/2 that price.

My general advice is to get a good mixer/ mic pre and spend less on the recorder. The Pres on the F8 are supposed to be quite good but I know the MixPre's are and I have had it for maybe 17 years now and it has been the front end on a long string of recorders. Recorders may have just about hit the wall since I have a hard time seeing where a budget recorder gets used for more than eight tracks. A decent recorder used to be one of the more expensive hunks of gear one bought. The $ of the equipment feeding a F8 is going to be a big multiple of the cost of the F8.

Personally with multi track recorders becoming the norm I don't really see a place for the three in two out mixers. You will want a mixer that has either a direct out or an assignable out for every in. Ideally for something like the F8 that would be eight tracks with direct outs that are post limiter, post EQ, and pre fader. And a LR mix out. But in reality most people would probably be fine with a track or two for the boom because everything else is going to be wireless.
 
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