Sound cards

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Panamaniac
Would the quality of your audio improve from a "better" sound card. I just built a computer and I didn't get a sound card because I just don't know if I need one. Does the sound card re-process the audio being rendered in any way if you don't add effects and choose the same audio output as you recorded? And if it does, will a better sound card make a difference in quality? Or are they only for inputs and audio playback. In my inexperience I would believe it if someone told me audio is processed by the CPU.
My motherboard has 6.1 Realtek audio built in and I edit on Vegas.

Also, I just wanted to write up a quick thank you to all of those who helped me pick my audio package. I am getting amazing stuff out of that Oktava MK-012-1 in particular.
 
Other than possible low/high end roll-off, sound cards usually don't color the sound; the bigger problem is how noisy they are. Built-in audio circuitry is often the worst offender. Personally, I use firewire audio interfaces for all my sound-out, the Mbox2 mini could work for you; other people like MOTU or Alesis. If you don't need an audio input device, you could get by with a clean audio card; look for a high S/N (signal to noise) ratio, and discrete balanced outputs for each channel.
 
I really like the idea of the XLR imputs like the Mbox2 you pointed out.

What would be considered a high SNR? I know this is a matter of what you can afford really, but since I don't really have money to spare now I wonder if getting an internal card with an 109dB SNR would still be far better than my onboard sound. If so then perhaps I should get one of those now instead of waiting. And I will continue to use this card for playback during editing even after getting something like the Mbox2 mini u pointed out for higher frequency recording.

How do I find out if it has discrete balanced outputs for each channel in the specs from sites like Newegg? this 109dB card for example is about as expensive as I should go for right now. But I don't know if it has them?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16829121002

I'm sure I missed something, I allways do here in the audio forum.
 
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pick up a m-audio 24/96 pci card for cheep. 2 RCA for I/O and rock solid drivers. No, the audio card doesn't effect internal rendering of any kind of audio file. It only effects what you hear with speakers connected.
 
For your price range, that M-Audio is probably the best you're going to find. M-Audio makes good stuff, and that's a good SNR, I say go for it. (The 24/96 is good too, little more expensive though.) You'll probably just need to get a couple Y-cables to split the outputs.
 
It is good to know they are only for playback, thanks!

I will hold off then till I get someone important behind me ion the room, wich might be soon though

what's I/O?
 
RCAs as imputs and outputs doesn't sound all that great, unless it was a digital stream. But I guess that what you get for the price.
 
I can recommend M-Audio Delta Audiophile 24/96 (which stands for 24bit 96kHz) and the use of an external mixer. The card has 2in and 2outs (analogue), S/PDIF I/O and a MIDI port
The Delta 24/96 should be available in stores for no more than $100

You only get real benefits if you use this card for recording. It cant make badly recorded samples/tunes sound better (128kbps 44kHz MP3 for example), keep that in mind :o)

regards,
mm
 
but I only own a Sound Devices Mix Pre... that's all, so unless I can somehow adapt the XLR outs to and of those ("S/PDIF I/O and a MIDI port") then it won't work... I'd love to be able to record a bit above 48kHz for when I add FXs to the audio I record... I will be recording 48kHz on location unless I have a mixer with a sound bag working on the project, but at home I can use my walk-in closet as a very effective sound booth and record with my Oktava bello nero wich sounds ridicolously good for a $190 mic (MK-012-01)...
My computer is right infront of the walk in closet, so as long as I turn the fans down and close the door I am good... (might be using a sound blanket or two draped over the door if needed...


would mixing and matching 48kHz from the HVX and 96kHz from the sound card be hard/impossible/ok/not recomended/dumb/smart/etc...?
 
S/PDIF is a digital I/O interface, you cant adapt an analogue output to, unless you use an A/D converter.

What you CAN do is adapting the XLR outs of your mixer to the cinch inputs of the soundcard (XLR female -> Cinch female). XLR (balanced) is good for phantom powering condenser microphones and/or eliminating interference (or crosstalk from power lines, called AC humm) occuring on long lines, that only works if you have XLR interfaces on both ends of the line and is normally not needed in a protected environment.

You can record a 48kHz signal with 96kHz but you wont get benefits doing that. The effect is the same as if you take a picture in 640x480 and then resize it to 200 %. The image is bigger afterwards, but the pixels are also. Its the same with audio.

btw.. if youre on the field, what device do you use for recording exactly and what kind of audio are you recording? (music, atmo, speech,...)
 
I only have the HVX right now, so everything gets recorded with it. I am recording dialogue, ambient, specific sounds when not in my extremely limited library, room tone, you name it... VOs, vocals, anything I need... all to the HVX.

I completely understand that "upsampling" a 48kHz recording to 96kHz is not adding anything that wasn't already there and if anything it might lower the quality. What I meant though is if there would be a big difference in the sound that I would have to later try to hide in post. I don't think I am making myself clear, sorry about that, but let me try to put it in an other way. If I shoot a scene recording sound into the HVX at 48kHz, and later I need to over-dub some lines and instead I record those at 96kHz because I am at home where I can record to the computer by Mic > XLR > RCA to Cinch adapter > Cinch cable? > SoundCard.

I am trying to figure out if there would be a dramatic difference from one to the other if recorded with the same mic. Of course I am not talking about the environment since that would be my job to make it match the "room tone" of the environment where the scene takes place.

All of this taking into account that I am in fact going to render out in 48kHz since that is the TV and DVD standard (is it?). Can I feel ok about shooting a low budget movie that is recorded onto the HVX through a Sound Devices MixPre? Or am I out of my mind?


Gosh I feel like I am being laughed at already and I haven't even hit submit yet. Sorry about any and all misconceptions and or down right retarded statements included herein my me. lol
 
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Then it all depends on the quality of the A/D converter in your camera if there are big differences between this sound and another sound recorded with 96kHz and then downsampled to 48kHz. You are using the same mic and mixer for field rec and overdub voice, thats a good one to avoid major differences.

There could be some change during the downsampling process, depending on the program/algorithm you are using, but 48 is the exact half of 96, so the program does not need to interpolate which is very good (the program takes only every 2nd sound sample, but as I said, depends on the algorithm!)

But the card is also capable of recording (and playing back) with 24bit resolution (16bit on the cam, I guess) so this could make a difference too. The best way would be to simply try it out.

Sorry if this confused you, but there are many stages and facts that play a role :o)

The configuration Mic > Mixer > RCA to Cinch adapter > Cinch cable? > SoundCard should be fine.

And you're not being laughed at!
 
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MichaelMichael said:
Then it all depends on the quality of the A/D converter in your camera if there are big differences between this sound and another sound recorded with 96kHz and then down sampled to 48kHz. You are using the same mic and mixer for field rec and overdub voice, thats a good one to avoid major differences.
Click to expand...

Great, I do understand that pre-amps color the sound, so I was most definitely run all of my audio through the same MixPre or other equipment available from out mixer's sound cart. In case we do get lucky enough I will make sure and talk to him about overdubs and his intentions as to handle them or at least let me get the mixer he will use on location. So at some point in time once I have a good cut I will make a list of all over-dubs I need and even if I have his mixer and/or recorder for just a weekend I can get my talent here and record all that is needed.
I am sorry if it is yet an other basic question. But what is the A/D converter? Is it a part of a recording device? I am a bit lost.

MichaelMichael said:
There could be some change during the down sampling process, depending on the program/algorithm you are using, but 48 is the exact half of 96, so the program does not need to interpolate which is very good (the program takes only every 2nd sound sample, but as I said, depends on the algorithm!)
Click to expand...

I have Vegas, Acid and Sound Forge. It seems the Sony guys where very good at witting Vegas to be smart and take advantage of situations like this one where the damage can be kept to a minimum and sometimes even close to zero. I suppose I will be delving into Acid and/or Sound Forge and figuring them out to do this process. Would you know if these will employ "good" algorithms"?
I will make sure and get one of those sound cards that record at 96 if I end up doing it myself.

MichaelMichael said:
But the card is also capable of recording (and playing back) with 24bit resolution (16bit on the cam, I guess) so this could make a difference too. The best way would be to simply try it out.

Sorry if this confused you, but there are many stages and facts that play a role :o)
Click to expand...

Yes, but I thank you for it! Otherwise I would have possibly overlooked this spec.
Testing is a must, especially at this level (my level). I am making very clear to the other three producers, and most specifically to my executive producer, that he must require from all tentative crew a very strong commitment to pre-production tests. I thank you for the reminder to include ample testing for these. I will be scouting locations with my DP and shooting B-roll, so perhaps we can have our mixer join us (If we have one). Is this a common thing to ask from the sound dept.? I would suspect on bigger budget projects, but credits only go so far... ?

MichaelMichael said:
The configuration Mic > Mixer > RCA to Cinch adapter > Cinch cable? > SoundCard should be fine.
Click to expand...

thanks :thumbsup: !
any suggestions as to brand names for the adapter and Cinch cable?


MichaelMichael said:
And you're not being laughed at!
Click to expand...
right :violin:
 
BTW it seems that my OS (XP Media Center) is not supported by any of the M-Audio products... :Drogar-Thinking(DBG

So I'll either have to follow these guidelines or switch to XP (cause I ain't going to Vista yet)

shawnmaddock said:
Other than possible low/high end roll-off, sound cards usually don't color the sound; the bigger problem is how noisy they are. Built-in audio circuitry is often the worst offender. Personally, I use firewire audio interfaces for all my sound-out, the Mbox2 mini could work for you; other people like MOTU or Alesis. If you don't need an audio input device, you could get by with a clean audio card; look for a high S/N (signal to noise) ratio, and discrete balanced outputs for each channel.
Click to expand...
 
A/D stands for Analog/Digital (Converter, or vice versa D/A Converter). This it the unit that converts the analog signal going into the sound card to a digital format.

For example:
If you record an analog signal on your computer via soundcard in 44kHz 16bit, the analog signal is being sampled ~44.100 times per second with a resolution of 16bit (2^16=65536 possible differences in loudness - just like 16bit color: you can have 65536 different colors at a time).

For this algorithm stuff - I know Vegas/Acid/Soundforge by name only, never used them myself. But I think you can trust "Pro"- Applications :o)

I use XLR->Cinch adapters for not more than $5 each, I dont even know the brand. I'm sure there are some high quality adapters with gold-plated connectors on the market. In my opinion, to actually hear the difference (I dont) *all* connectors from mic to card should be gold-plated and you need to have a really well-trained ear. The Neve guy says its all ****, you just have to do a decent soldering. Neve use some low-cost parts to build their amazingly sounding devices, the parts are just well measured :o)

I use Cordial cinch cables (german brand afaik). If you buy cables, no matter what connectors they have, make sure they can be opened and repaired simply.

regards,
mm
 
wow, what a thread!

thank you! sorry I didn't respond but I got my replacement motherboard yesterday and I just finished overclocking it again... :)
I still can't belive the XP Mediacenter crap.... they are not the only ones though... maybe I should just switch


I am getting XP! So I'll get the M-Audio as soon as I can feel ok about the $$...
 
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Ok, I am about to buy the card. I have XP 64-bit and still have the 32-bit but I don't have them installed yet.

So before i go ahead, should I still go with the M-Audio Delta Audiophile 24/96 or has something better come out? Also, is that the right card on the link? It is going for $85!

Can't wait! I guess I'll also get a small increase in CPU related performance since the sound processing will be done by the card's processor, right? I heard sound can take up-to 10% of your CPU. That sounds more of a video game playing figure to me though. Does anyone know if this card will handle the processing?

I would love to get a card that handled 100% of the audio processing if they exist.
 
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Maybe one of these?

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/hdsp9632.htm

I was just told they are known for picking up the processing so the CPU has to do the least possible. I was also told they have "solid drivers".

Does anyone know these at all?

NEVER MIND, I JUST CALLED A DEALER IN CLEVELEAND THAT'S ALREADY OPEN AND THEY ARE $400 +
:) They sure did look nice.
 
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