Sony's answer to the new Panny...

But if Panasonic and Red were going to cut into Sony's market share anyway, then why not try to keep some of that money from going away, even if it means undercutting their older models.
 
Sumfun said:
But if Panasonic and Red were going to cut into Sony's market share anyway, then why not try to keep some of that money from going away, even if it means undercutting their older models.
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They are not going to cut into the Sony market. Red One captured a market that was in a price between entry level camcorders and high end camcorders, it was practically a new market. Sony lost nothing, they just became aware of its existence. I don't think Panasonic lost anything also.

The video capable SLRS are on the other end of the spectrum, an expansion of the cosumer segment that is commercially interesting. It's below $4,000. All manufacturers will have 1080p capable SLRs soon.

In any case, I don't see Sony commiting commercial suicide by releasing something like that below $25,000. If it has the feature set of a camcorder and it's free from alias, I don't think it would cost less than that. It would be like killing an entire market with numerous products that make a lot of money and all for a very wild bet. Large companies do not do that. It would be much easier to penetrate the video capable DSLR market in a safer way, with an alternative to Canon/Panasonic models.

Product lines are build on differentiation. The companies know what features are those that count and progressively offer them at higher pricing levels. Which is why there are no affordable interchangable lens / intraframe full raster format / 2/3" / full raster 1080p sensor / CCD models around. Even a single one of those features means a major price increase. So, even with rolling shutter CMOS and GOP format (I bet this camcorder will have both), this would create damaging internal competition inside the Sony line. Sony have some very expensive camcorders that are rolling shutter CMOS and GOP. Almost all their commercially important models fit the description. This camera can't be $5000 or $10,000 as many would hope. If it comes to market, it will compete with Red One, the new interesting segment, and not affect any of the other Sony market segments. The sensor size/shallow DOF/lens and other practical limitations would protect their 2/3" shoulder mount camcorder sales and the pricing would protect their affordable camcorder sales.
 
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I just read the Panasonic 4/3" will be $6,000 without media and accessories, so the Sony could probably be $8,000 if there weren't so many expensive 1/3" and 1/2" CMOS+GOP compression products in their line. Panasonic has the advantage that their more expensive camcorders are protected by the intraframe formats and some by CCD global shutter. Sony have eliminated intraframe and CCD at their affordable range so there would be nothing to differentiate on over this camera. We will see.
 
Good points, but if they bring something out for $25,000 it better be a lot more than a DSLR chip in a different body or they wont sell any.

In my view, we are in a market collapse at the present time. A lot of projects will look good and be acceptable using a wide range of camera pricepoints.

The camera makers can no longer count on high end projects only using high end gear. It is all being redefined and the companies that step up with new products will be more in the mix.

Protecting will eventually lead to falling behind. So what do they do going forward? I don't know, but it will be stormy seas for sure.

HD in the home has brought out the true position of what people think is good enough...and it is a lot lower than the high level of production once thought was neccessary. When a $1,000 can make people go ooh and ahh, the executives from the the big manfacturers got to be shaking in their $1,000 shoes. Because no matter how hard they try, the markey will erode. The best way is to embrace it and be in the mix.

In my view, the existing 2/3" cameras on the market right now do not need to be visited again. They can be effective for many years into the future. This is not an area they will be able to get people to upgrade. There is just no market demand for better as the cameras are rather stunning as they are.

So they better find new products like this pocket film cam type to capture attention or they will wasting R&D on making new $30,000 ENG cameras that nobody is calling for.

So I think they need to offer a camera like this sub-$10,000 or folks will buy some other company's for that price. Pricing seems to be ruling the game when you are having to compete with a $1,000 vDSLR that really creates quite a nice image.
 
Otis Grapsas said:
I just read the Panasonic 4/3" will be $6,000 without media and accessories, so the Sony could probably be $8,000 if there weren't so many expensive 1/3" and 1/2" CMOS+GOP compression products in their line. Panasonic has the advantage that their more expensive camcorders are protected by the intraframe formats and some by CCD global shutter. Sony have eliminated intraframe and CCD at their affordable range so there would be nothing to differentiate on over this camera. We will see.
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Having a larger sensor wouldn't make 1/3 and 1/2 inch sensor cameras obsolete. They still have many advantages depending on what they are being used for. After all, neither this or the panasonic appear to be 'real' camcorders, more a hybrid of a DSLR and a camcorder.
 
I wish the product lines were eventually simplied. But that's impossible really. Even $4,500 vs $5,200 is important in some purchases. Not to mention $999 vs $1199.

The new cameras look like real mid-level camcorders in features and appearance. If we assume the extra features (audio, inputs, outputs) of these camcorder is what differentiates them from the low cost consumer models, we are still looking at quite a price difference. $8,000 for an equiped Panasonic with media etc vs $1500 for the dSLR version is a full $6500. Which gets "only" a more usable camera, no real difference in imaging (global shutter, possibly alias) or compression quality (bitrate, intraframe).
 
Video from the press conference, courtesy of cameradepartment.tv:

http://vimeo.com/10882451

The camera is apparently a "smaller, more affordable, entry-level 35mm camcorder that will be released prior to NAB 2011."

Let the games begin!
 
Tim Le said:
The camera is apparently a "smaller, more affordable, entry-level 35mm camcorder that will be released prior to NAB 2011."

Let the games begin!
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it seem to be aimed at the Red more than the F100 it is a "35mm camcorder" I will be surprised if it is any where near the price of the F100
 
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Yak said:
it seem to be aimed at the Red more than the F100 it is a "35mm camcorder" I will be surprised if it is any where near the price of the F100
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Full frame 35 = 36 x 24 mm (1x crop factor)
Super 35 = 25 x 19 mm (1.5x crop factor)
Four Thirds = 18 x 13.5 mm (2x crop factor)


When people talk about "35" they really need to qualify whether they mean Full Frame or Super, because the difference in size is big. I think the Sony cam is Super 35.

I don't know: There is a good difference between Super 35 and Four Thirds, but they are closer to each other than Super 35 is to Full Frame 35.

Super 35, despite its name being "Super," is actually smaller than Full Frame 35. It is the format used by Hollywood (technically they use a variety of 35mm formats, but they are all about Super 35). Full Frame 35 is also a dumb name. It is the format used by still photographers. One format is what you get when you put your frames vertically on 35mm film. The other is horizontally.

Anyway, if you want to emulate the Hollywood look you would prefer Super 35. Whereas if you want to use all your old still lenses, you would prefer Full Frame. But full frame is about the size of 70mm motion-picture format, to give you an idea of just what you are dealing with, and so the focus is almost too shallow even for the methodical pace of scripted, controlled shooting environments.

Now all this may be more than you wanted to hear and possibly what you aready knew --- but I guess it's a long way of saying that I don't think it being "35" means it can't be as cheap as the Panny.

Also, by the way, in the video I hear the presenter speak about no need for "endless firmware updates." At first, I was like, what is he refering to? Then I realized he must be poking fun at the Red One (or trying to). Well, it's obvious they have the Red One in their sights and are competing against it with this one.

Say what you will about Red, you can at least partly thank them for Sony making (or starting to make) this one.
 
This looks to be the exmor HD APS-C sensor destined for the sony mirrorless consumer cameras as well.

I'd read elsewhere that it had an alpha mount. If that's the case then perhaps zeiss et al will remount some of their prosumer lenses for it.

There's been no announcement about an alpha dSLR with this sensor though, that would be a nice start.

It would make sense to use the same sensor across various lines. Much in the same way the panasonic 4/3rds is doing. I'm sure the quantities needed for the stills market vastly outweight the quantites for our market and therefore combining sensor development would be a sensible move. So long as they can get the data off it fast enough to not line skip or melt.

cheers
paul
 
Otis Grapsas said:
They are not going to cut into the Sony market. Red One captured a market that was in a price between entry level camcorders and high end camcorders, it was practically a new market. Sony lost nothing, they just became aware of its existence. I don't think Panasonic lost anything also.

The video capable SLRS are on the other end of the spectrum, an expansion of the cosumer segment that is commercially interesting. It's below $4,000. All manufacturers will have 1080p capable SLRs soon.

In any case, I don't see Sony commiting commercial suicide by releasing something like that below $25,000. If it has the feature set of a camcorder and it's free from alias, I don't think it would cost less than that. It would be like killing an entire market with numerous products that make a lot of money and all for a very wild bet. Large companies do not do that. It would be much easier to penetrate the video capable DSLR market in a safer way, with an alternative to Canon/Panasonic models...
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Actually, when I said Red was going to take away Sony's market share, I meant the Red Scarlet. But we can talk Red One, too. There are plenty of comparisons between Red One and Sony F23 and F35, which cost way more. Producers on tight budgets often choose Red One over these 2 Sonys. F900's (at a relatively low $80k) aren't even considered much any more. And why do you think Panasonic offered their 3700 and 2700 cameras for half price (with trade-in)? Red One and the poor economy changed the market. $40k+ cameras (body only) just aren't selling like they used to. And why should they, when you can get arguably better pictures from a Red One, fully outfitted for less than $30k.

Don't get me wrong. I think there will still be a market for high end 2/3" cameras, but that market is getting smaller every day, mostly due to the fact that cheaper cameras can produce pictures that are "good enough" (or better than), especially for budget minded productions. And when I say cheaper cameras, I mean mostly those from Sony and Panasonic themselves. Red is only a small percentage.

But now Red is threatening to change the game again with Scarlet. A fully equipped Scarlet S35 kit might run ~$10k. Now a lot of people who were thinking of dropping $25k for a 2/3" camera will reconsider. Panasonic is smart to come out with the AF100 now, to try to beat Red to the punch. If expensive cameras like the 2700 and 3700 aren't selling any more, then they want to be where the money is - in the $10k range. It doesn't matter if the AF100 is going to cut into their high end business, because the high end business is already dying (just look at all the TV stations now using 1/3" and low-end 2/3" cameras).

I think Sony is smart, too. I think they will follow the same strategy as Panasonic, and keep the camera priced below $10k. Who would buy a camera like this for $25k, when they can get pretty much the same thing from Red or Panasonic for $10k? I think using the same sensor and mount as the alpha DSLRs also portend of the lower price point.

A large portion of the sub- $10k market consists of indie film makers who want that film look - specifically 24p and 35mm DOF. With Red and Panasonic already announcing products for this market, it would be suicide for Sony NOT to have a horse in this race.
 
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anybody can tell what kind of lens was used on the picture? that could tell what kind of frame it is.. im betting s35
 
when all these new cameras comes out, what does it mean to high end cameras like the si2k, panavision or other $100k++ cameras?
 
I think the $100k cameras will have their place as they always have had for major studio release projects.

The other tier, Red 1 and SI2K might be in trouble if these new $10,000 cameras are, to use that phrase "good enough".

The 5DMKII started all of this by delivering image quality that nobody expected from a still, non-optimized for video setup. It is tough to know how much impact these little cameras wil have, but I bet it has the potential to be huge.
 
According to the Japanese site AVWatchImpress the camera is a S35 sensor. More interestingly, it says that it may use the same sensor as the F35/SRW-9000PL.

http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/series/zooma/20100412_360773.html

Sony did also announced the SRW-9000PL, which is upgradable from the SRW-9000, and its been confirmed that it will also have the F35 sensor as well.

The implications are important, the F35 sensor is a CCD with a global-shutter, moreover the sensor resolution is exactly 1920 X 1080, so no line-skipping and no rolling-shutter.

At the moment, this is the only S35-sized sensor that Sony manufactures, and they clearly plan on using it within their lower-tier products. They may in fact make a new completely new S35 sensor for their lowest-tier S35 camera, or they could use their existing sensor (which obviously holds-up in quality).

It also may mean that this new compact super-35mm Sony won't really be close in price to the Panasonic. It may in fact cost significantly more.



sony0411new02.jpg
 
I don't think they will put the F35 CCD sensor on this camera. They don't have to. Sony have traditionally been going to opposite way. Keeping the best sensors in the best models and lowering the production cost of all affordable and mid level camcorders.

The high end cameras, if you mean CCD intraframe models, are safe because they have far better motion quality, due to global shutter and low compression. If you mean CMOS intraframe cameras such as most affordable digital cinema cameras, their low compression intraframe format is enough to give them an edge. The market these camcorders are designed for considers intraframe codecs to be extremely important.
 
Let the speculation begin!

Nobody knows anything. Sony and Panasonic can do whatever the hell they want, whether it makes sense to us or not. I mean, Panasonic's AF100 at 6K? And, chances are that'll be lower by the time it hits the street?

Who would've EVER guessed that? I know we were all thinking at LEAST 10K.

Speculate away, though.
 
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