sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

mastermind

mastermind

Well-known member
I'm using a proffessional Sony 14" 16:9 capable production monitor (one of the PVMetc... monitors).  I bought it a couple years ago and have only used it for post production and not on set.  

I just got my dvx a few days ago and i plugged it into my monitor to fool around last night.  I calibrated the monitor with the dvx's color bars and the difference in color is very noticeable b/w the dvx's screen and the monitor.  Now i don't know which one to trust as being a true representation.

The color on the monitor is a lot more towards red/purple than the dvx which is more towards the blue scale.  the image on the dvx screen is also a lot sharper. Especially noticeable with color bars.

The monitor is only about 3 years old and is a professional monitor (paid over $1000 canadian for it) so I'm assuming I should be trusting it but am not totally convinced.  I did my calibration following a guide and did it step by step.  The monitor does not have "blue only" so i did my chroma adjustment by eyeballing the yellow and magenta.  the guides i have don't mention the "phase" adjustments so i'm not sure how to adjust the settings on that so i just eyeballed that too.

1-does anyone know how i should be using "phase" when calibrating?

2-do you think I should be trusting the monitor?  Is the monitor maybe screwed up (it's not that old though)  is my calibrating off? ( i followed the guide step by step)  I even just tried adjusting the monitor by eye to match the dvx and couldn't.  I couldn't pull out the blues and the black's were not as rich as on the dvx...(couldn't get them to match either)

this is really quite a dillema for me so any help would be greatly appreciated.  

thanks.
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd

Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd

Blue only is the quick and dirty way to calibrate your phase. I think Filmtools.com sells a Tiffen viewing glass that will do nicely for this purpose.

When deploying and color matching multiple video projectors, we often threw bars up and used this process to rough-in phase across several units at once.

My 1354Q is blue-only so I haven't had to tweak it this way, but you can also back out the chroma to effective black and white and tweak the phase there and then bring the chroma back up to "unity".

e
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd

Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd

thanks for the answer...any further suggestions or ideas? Where's the "Guru"?
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

I'm not the guru but here's my 2 cents: Phase is the same as the hue control. If your monitor doesn't have the blue only switch, the only way to calibrate it correctly is use a blue filter (wratten 47B dark blue) to look through while calibrating it. I purchased the Video Essentials DVD a while ago and it came with a blue filter.

Here is link to a good article on calibration: http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm

I wouldn't trust my monitor until it's calibrated properly and I wouldn't trust the camera lcd at all. Move your head a couple inches while you are looking at the lcd on the camera and notice how much the image changes.

I think once you calibrate your Sony using a blue gel you can trust it but if you haven't calibrated it properly I wouldn't trust it or the camera lcd. :)
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

Totally agreed with what jollo said.

Also, as for calibration, you have to keep two things in mind: one, you have to let the monitor warm up for a good 10 minutes before you even attempt calibrating it. And two, if the light conditions change, you have to calibrate again. So if working in your office with a set lighting scheme, one calibration may be fine, but if you're changing locations and the ambient light is changing around you, you have to re-calibrate the monitor each time.
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

Ditto to Jollo and Barry's advice on warming up the monitor.  Barry I don't understand your last advice in recalibrating a monitor if the ambient light change.  I thought the purpose of calibration is to set proper colors according to NTSC standards.  But I've never heard about recalibrating because the ambient light changed.  Can you elaborate?
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

i am aware that i should be trusting a properly calibrated monitor.  My question in regards to the phase (which is the hue i guess) is what's the difference b/w that and the chroma.  the guides i used, the videouniversity being one of them tells me to turn down the chroma, adjsut brightness and contrast then adjust the chroma back to "normal"  it says nothing about the phase.  I'm assuming i should be adjusting both phase and chroma (which are 2 seperate controls on my monitor)  how do I adjust these 2?  I'm also really dissapointed that my monitor doesn't have a blue only switch considering it's supposed to be a pro monitor and how much I paid for it.

another thing is that on my monitor menu i can select differenct colours (auto-NTSC-NTSC(something)-pal-secam...etc...) i know it's obviously not pal or secam but should i just leave it on auto or should i have it on one of the NTSCs?
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

Chroma = saturation or color gain. The auto function I'm not sure about. I have the Sony PVM 14l and the auto function is for the format display. It determines whether the format display of the input signal is displayed or not and doesn't have anything to do with the calibration. Which Sony PVM do you have?

Here's another link to a PDF that can probably explain all this better than I can. http://www.synthetic-ap.com/tips/calibrate.pdf

The PDF is from Synthetic Aperture on how to calibrate a monitor. Maybe it will give you enough info to go on. Here's what they say about adjusting hue (phase) and chroma (saturation):

"With the Blue Only switch engaged, or while viewing through the 47B filter, you should see four brighter bars with three darker bars separating them. At the bottom of each of the four brighter bars is a small rectangular bar segment. Pay no attention to the other parts of the display. You can now start adjusting the Hue and Chroma controls. The goal is to make the color and brightness of the brighter vertical bars match the rectangular bar segments below them using only the Hue and Chroma controls. Adjusting the Hue control mainly affects the two middle bars, while adjusting the Chroma control mainly affects the two outside bars. Continue adjusting both controls until all four bars match. Once all bars match, turn off the Blue Only switch."

Are you trying to adjust the monitor without using a blue gel? If your not using a gel, I think it will be a crap shoot trying to get it calibrated. ;D
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

ok...that's what I was looking for.  I had no idea how to work phase and chroma.  I'll get a blue gel and do it that way and yes I was doing it by eye.  They say the yellow should be a lemoney yellow (how ripe is the lemon?) and the magenta shouldn't have purple or red, isn't it a bit of both?  

In regards to the monitor, I'm not sure what PVM it is cus i'm at work and I have it at home.

In regards to the auto vs. ntsc vs ntsc-(whatever) vs pal , secam, i'm not sure where in the menu that is and what it refers to.  I do notice a colour shift when shifting b/w the two NTSCs and the auto, so I just left it on auto.  Any clarification on that would be great and then I'll be all done.

Thanks so much.
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

[quote author=Ernest_Acosta link=board=news;num=1107961521;start=0#5 date=02/10/05 at 09:12:57]But I've never heard about recalibrating because the ambient light changed.  Can you elaborate?[/quote]
You need to make sure that the monitor is delivering a visual representation of the full dynamic range, under the current lighting conditions. If you're in a very dark room, you might need to turn the brightness way down so that your eyes see the image properly on the screen. If you go outdoors and there's sunlight washing directly onto the monitor screen, you may need to adjust it again, cranking the brightness way up, with more contrast, etc... you have to make sure that under whatever conditions you're shooting, the color bars are showing the proper range of contrast, brightness and color.
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

I've been following this thread with great interest. I am saving up for a real monitor, but in the meantime, I am stuck with what I have. The 'blue gel' technique intrigued me. If I use DVRack, I know I can adjust the 'field monitor' using DVRack controls. However, say I use a laptop with a secondary (large) PC monitor - which is actually a switchable NTSC TV/PC display (it's actually interesting to see the difference between PC monitor and TV).

So, now I want to calibrate the TV (no blue only, only the standard TV controls - tint and color). Can I use the blue gel technique and how do I do it?

Sorry if this post is a little confusing - on Fridays my brain has a tendency to turn off. It doesn't turn on again until Tuesday afternoon...

EDIT: I told you so...major brain core meltdown.

I read the whole thread again and found the instructions to calibrate using a 47B filter. So the question is - can it be done with a regular TV, using brigthness, contrast, color & tint? Or should I not even try?
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

Thank you Barry for your explanation, but I think I misunderstood the question with regards to calibration. Usually when I'm outside I have a small tent where the monitor is or the poor man version of taping cardboard around the edges of the monitor to shield the screen from the sun and making it more visible. My apologies.
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

No apologies necessary! As long as under those conditions you can still see the PLUGE properly, you won't likely have to recalibrate. But if the PLUGE doesn't look right, you should recalibrate for the light conditions you're under at the time.
 
Re: sony monitor vs. dvx lcd--BARRY AROUND?--

to elaborate on the topic, phase or hue is a factor in NTSC video because it's backwards compatable with black and white televisions. The chrominance signal is tacked onto the luminance signal and modulated with a subcarrier frequency. This way, black and white televisions can still display the same picture by simply ignoring the chroma and displaying only luma.

Now the phase issue comes into play because when the signal transmits through a variety of different carriers (be it wiring, circuity, connectors, or atmospheric conditions)...the chrominance signal actually starts to come out of phase. So essentially at the end point, the color wave is in a different position then it's supposed to be, leading to color that is skewed.

All a phase or hue adjustment does is change the color wave so it returns to the proper phase position.

Also, you should be careful with the "pro" monitors, as they can have more technical color control and color balance adjustments burried in the menu system. It's really easy to screw one of them up and it can be very difficult to return them to correct balance once you do.

I say this with direct experience, don't go playing with the RGB adjustments in a Sony Broadcast monitor if you don't know what you're doing. It's a pain in the ass to get things back to where you had them.
 
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