Sony ECM 44b Lav - Very Low Output? Or is it my Mixer?

S

Strouty

Well-known member
Hi! First post here and still very green when it comes to the audio world (I'm mainly a photographer) so be gentle. And I apologize in advance for what probably will be a long-winded question.

Background: A group of friends and I have been working on a low-budget documentary/web series over the past few months. For video, we are mainly using 5d2's and 5d3's. I came on mid-project and they were using a cheap little shotgun hooked up to a H4n, but it was rarely placed 'optimally', usually on camera or far enough away to sound pretty awful. I took it amongst myself to figure out what we could do to improve the audio, and reading this forum has been a wonderful resource. I also picked up Jay Rose's book on Sound for Film and Video and have been studying that.

It should be noted that none of us are getting paid for this (we all have other full time jobs). We are just a group who enjoy doing short films, documentaries, etc, but want a final product that is of reasonably high quality as well. So I went on a little shopping spree (out of my own pocket) and picked up a set of gear to get us started to go along with the H4n and cheapie shotgun we already had:

Gear: Zoom H4n, Tascam DR-40, Rode NTG-3, Audio Technica 4073, Audio Technica 4053 Hyper, Azden FMX 42 Mixer, Sony ECM 44b wired lav, Rode Blimp, K-Tek boom, and a slew of other accessories (shockmounts, cables, attenuators, adaptors, etc).

Question: So I know Azden Mixer's don't get a lot of love around here, but I found a used one for fairly cheap, and we're not needing perfection. However, when hooked up with the Sony ECM 44b lav, I am finding the levels extremely low. Even when I switch the mixer's mic input gain to -50, max both the master volume and channel volume, go into the DR-40 at line level, and max the DR-40 volume, I can not get the levels to peak (at normal speaking levels) with the lav 6 inches away from my mouth.

Normally, set-up of the mixer would include setting everything at unity gain, using the +4 dBU tone generator to set the the dr-40 to around -12 to -15 db and go from there. However, with the Lav, I pretty much have to max everything, and still have levels hovering in the -18 to -25 db range.

Tests: I've also hooked the lav directly to the DR-40 at Mic Level and turned volume all the way up, and still only hit -20 db normally, so my initial thoughts are it's probably a lav issue. Is anyone else having to cranked up levels this high when working with wired Lavs? I know the Sony isn't know for it's high output sensitivity, but something seems off here. And yes, I have put a fresh battery in the Lav.

As an added twist, I am finding the the preamp in the Mixer to be fairly weak when used with any of the other mics as well. When using the NTG-3, I originally switched the mixer input to -30 dB with phantom and founds levels pretty low as well, even when about a foot away from the mic. I can crank the input volume up and get pretty acceptable results, or switching to -50 db on the input works as well.

So what do you think? Is it the lav, mixer, or am I just dealing with the realities of wired lavaliers? Honestly, even with the low output with the lav, we can usually boost and denoise in post so that the results are good enough (to our ears). And if the solution is "go get a Sound Device 302 or Mix Pre", then so be it. But I guess I wanted to give the Azden a fair chance before tossing it aside.
 
One note with sony mic's is that if you are using them with battery you should make sure that the phantom power is turned off also if you are using phantom power then you should take the battery out.

Have you tried taking the battery out and just using phantom power? the mic should be of reasonable sensitivity and should be on a par with your other mic's. Have you checked that the battery is in the right way round and if you are using a cable to connect the mic to your mixer or recorder have you tried another cable as that may be faulty.

It could be that the charge on the electret capsule has gone off as in time the capsules on sony mic's can fail, it may also be the the contact on the mic head is not making correct contact, you can unscrew the capsule head on most sony mic's and make sure it is clean and making good contact but I have never used the 44 so not sure if that is true for this mic.
 
Thanks for the response! This particular Sony Lav only run's on batteries (a single AA) and I made sure it was installed correctly and phantom power was off. I'll definitely check the capsule to see if there is an issue there. I bought the lav used on ebay, so I guess I want to make sure I didn't get a dud, or if it's my mixer that is the problem. I have another Sony Lav (a ECM 55b, which runs on phantom power as well) getting shipped to me. When that comes in, I'll do some more testing/comparisons to try to better pinpoint what the source of the issue is.
 
Good that you can get another mic to compare with.

The capsules do go off in time and moisture in them can affect the charge on the electret plate, we did a test several years ago with lots of ECM 50's and some of the capsules were absolutely dreadful.

If it is like the other ECM mic's you can very carefully unscrew the very end of the capsule and c heck the gold contact pin and the screw threads, having not used the ECM 44 I am assuming it is like other sony mics and be careful when screwing the capsule back on as it is easy to cross thread the head.
 
All the (factory) models of the ECM-44, 55, 77 which have the XLR AA Battery / Phantom Power. module operate as Gary stated. The battery must be removed when using Phantom Pwr.. If the XLR module is third-party, it's very possibly not wired correctly, or the mic element or cable is damaged.. but they are fairly rugged so I would check the connector wiring first.
 
Thanks everyone for the tips/suggestions. I just received a Sony ECM 55b today and tested that as well. Levels seem to be about the same as the 44b. The 55b I tried on phantom power (no battery inserted) and the 44b with battery only (phantom power turned off). With everything turned up (channel, master and recorder levels), I can get normal dialogue levels to stay in the -20 to -25 db range with the lavaliers pinned to my collar. Noise isn't horrendous, nothing that a denoiser pass couldn't take care of.

I think I'm going to chalk it up to pretty weak preamps in the Azden FMX 42 (at least my copy). All the more reason to upgrade to a Sound Device I suppose. Live and learn.
 
I used to have some ECM-55s (still do in storage.. I think ) and don't ever recall a level issue with them through numerous different preamps or mixers... never an Azden though.

Addendum: Perusing the Azden FMX42 manual, it doesn't really state the max amount of input gain available, but the input channels have a three-position gain setting switches: “+4”, “-30 dBu”, “-50 dBu”, (just below the XLR inputs on the side) Have you tried a different setting.. +4dB is for line-level, so -30 or -50dB is for MIC.
 
Last edited:
It might just be an impedance issue with the azden etc as my ECM55 has plenty of gain too.
 
Last edited:
I've been using the '-50dB' setting on the Azden with the lavaliers, which I believe gives a provides a little more gain then the -30dB or line level in. I've actually being doing some more tests with the ECM 55b and I would say that it's a actually not as bad as I first thought. I can actually get it to reasonable levels without cranking the gain all the way up. The 44b is still pretty weak though, so I'm thinking that I have a somewhat 'insensitive' 44b.

With my other mics (Rode NTG-3, AT 4073 and 4053), I have no issues with gain, although all of those are quite a bit more sensitive than the lavs. Considering this is my first experience with a mixer, it's possible that I just didn't know what to expect.

For what's it's worth, I found a good deal on a Sound Device 302, so I bought myself an early Xmas gift :-)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top