Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

[Yue]

I have a dilemma I cannot decide
wheter to buy the Sony DSRPD170 or the Panasonic AGDVX100AP. Can you please help me
out? I want to use the camcorder to shoot documentaries as well as short films.
Basically, I want the camcorder to be versatile. Can you tell me which camcorder in
your view is best for my needs.

As soon as I can (i.e. tomorrow), I will be buying the camcorder and I have talked to
many experts and
users of the camcorders that I plan to buy. As you probably know they both are
new models from these manufacturers. Would it be possible for you to tell me if the
PD-170 stands up
to par with the DVX100A or is it better (features? Image? Performance? Design?) What is
your take on this camcorder (i.e PD-170)? I have checked the prices and they are
relatively the same (minimal difference). Therefore, the cost is not an issue.

The attractive features on the PD-170 is the DVCAM which allows the sound and audio to
be in sync, no dropped frames and better quality image, it has 1 lux, a black & white
viewfinder, and a Color LCD screen (transmissive and reflective) among many other
things.

The DVX100AP has 24P which gives it a filmic look, but I have been
told that I can achieve the same effect with the PD-170 with good editing software
(avid...)- is this true?, it has the manual rings with the numbers on it, awesome
features on top of several other stuff. I was told that when using the 24p mode the
quality of the pic is less as well as some functions are disabled. Furthermore, I have
been told that when I pan in 24p the AGDVX100AP image is sketchy. What do you do to fix
this?

Another thing I heard is that the body of the dvx is not strong and the parts are made out of low quality material. Also, I cannot get an extended warranty with the dvx100ap

I am really in the dark as to how the Panasonic AG-DVX100A compares to the Sony
DSR-PD170. Could you shed some light on my dilemma to make my purchase decision
easier?



Thanks for everything,
Youssef El-Khoury

 

[booggerg]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

The Sony will give you nice image but it'll be the proverbial Video-look PERIOD. Unless you do tons of post processing to make it resemble film. The Sony is built a tad better than the DVX and feels sturdier, but that's only relative.. The DVX is build damn well.

 

[J.R. Hudson]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

YOU SAID:

Short Films

I SAY:

DVX

 

[Barry_Green]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

[quote author=Yue link=board=Links;num=1081923525;start=0#0 date=04/13/04 at 23:18:45]What is
your take on this camcorder (i.e PD-170)? [/quote]
A superb video camera, excellent image quality, nice feature set. If all you want to shoot is interlaced video, the PD170 is an excellent choice.

The attractive features on the PD-170 is the DVCAM which allows the sound and audio to
be in sync

Both the DVX and the PD170 use locked audio, so audio sync is the same with either

no dropped frames and better quality image

DVCAM is a little more dropout-resistant, at the expense of running through tapes quicker (you'll get 40 minutes in DVCAM mode, vs. 60 minutes in DV mode). However, DVCAM does not give you a better quality image -- the data stream is identical.

The DVX100AP has 24P which gives it a filmic look, but I have been
told that I can achieve the same effect with the PD-170 with good editing software
(avid...)- is this true?

Bullpucky. You can get a bogus low-res interpolated field-de-interlaced look, but you cannot replicate the high-res 24P look. The DVX will deliver a full 480 lines of resolution in 24P mode. Using frame-blending software with a PD170 will give you (at best) about 300 lines, and motion artifacts.

I was told that when using the 24p mode the
quality of the pic is less as well as some functions are disabled.

Bullpucky. The 24P mode delivers a higher-quality image, and on the DVX100A (which is the only model available now) there are no features disabled.

Furthermore, I have
been told that when I pan in 24p the AGDVX100AP image is sketchy. What do you do to fix
this?

You were told this by someone who doesn't know how to shoot film. To fix it? Pan the camera like a film camera and you'll get footage that looks like what a film camera would deliver.

Another thing I heard is that the body of the dvx is not strong and the parts are made out of low quality material.

Bullpucky. The DVX is made of a magnesium alloy, the highest-tech and strongest frame you can get in a prosumer camera. We can give you all the facts you need, but whoever's been feeding you this "info" is full of crapola.

Also, I cannot get an extended warranty with the dvx100ap

Okay, my politeness is wearing off. This is not only Bullpucky, but it is a lie.

I am really in the dark as to how the Panasonic AG-DVX100A compares to the Sony
DSR-PD170. Could  you shed some light on my dilemma to make my purchase decision
easier?

Sure. The DVX100 is everything the PD170 is, and a whole lot more. The PD170 has a couple of features the DVX doesn't have (like DVCAM and a bogus b&w LCD viewfinder) but the DVX shoots footage that looks like FILM, it's got the best audio system of any prosumer camera available (ask your Sony friends about Sony halting production on the PD170 because if you open the LCD panel you get a hiss/hum in the audio...)

Again, if all you want to do is shoot video-looking video, the PD170 is a great choice. Of course, for the same money you could get a DVX which shoots just-as-good video, plus film-looking video too, and better audio as well. The choice is yours, but for all of us here the choice was pretty obvious.

 

[David Jimerson]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

And remember, we were all where you are, examining and weighing facts, trying to make the best decision. We all made the same one based on those facts. We're not biased toward the DVX because we're in this forum. We're in this forum because we chose the DVX.

 

[svilay]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

I was also debating between getting the PD170 and the dvx100a. I couldn't decide so I tossed a coin, and the dvx100a won. So, I got that.

Just kidding. I spent months researching this. I'm doing film, so I went with the DVX. Sure the camera has its foibles, but I'm glad I got it. Also, I should note that this is my very first video camera. So I've no experience with any other cameras.

 

[boo]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

i remember when i was 7-9 years old my favorite tv shows were, "three's company" and "the greatest american hero."  i always wondered why three's company looked sharped and real while the greatest american hero looked different(i didn't know how to say it at that age). i had no idea one was shot on film and the other on video.  like i knew the difference.  all i knew was that i didn't like the sharp, real video look of three's company but have been fascinated by tv shows shot on film because it didn't look real(as in dreamy).  then mtv hits the airwaves.  early music videos(you know, them rap videos) were shot on, of course video.  but for some reason it looked unprofessional to me.  then there was mv's shot on film...looked more professional for some reason.  

in 1997, i finally got my first video camera, the sony vx1000.  i really liked how clean the image was compared to mom n pop cams which i was used to but for some reason i was not happy it was...video like...for my student projects i used some cinelook to try to get that filmlook but was never happy w/ the results.  now the dvx arrives 1 1/2 years ago.  finally, the camera i've been waiting for.  shoots interlaced as well as true progressive 24p.  i've been inspired by seeing other people's work shot on the dvx.  the point of my tv and mtv show comparison's is that at such an early age, shows shot on film was more pleasing and professional than those shot on video.  same goes w/ the pd170 vs. dvx100(a).  unless you're in situations where lighting is not an option, by all means go w/ the dvx.  very versatile in shooting standard interlaced video as well as 24p.  i just shot a theatrical production in 24pa this past saturday(my first real gig w/ the dvx100a!) and showed some footage to the group i recorded and they were in, WOW!  they really liked it and was wondering how i got that look.  my future projects will consist of music videos and commercials as well as corporate video so the dvx's versatility was a no brainer.

 

[Bradbro]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

I have the DVX100a and the 170's lil brother the VX2000. I've been filming a band in LA in concert using both camera's. And although I was surprised at how well the footage from both cams blend together, it's really the DVX footage in 24p that gives it the "ready for VH-1" look. The footage has a professional look and feel, and the sound quality from the DVX is nothing less than amazing. I'm also a recording engineer, so sound really does count for me and this thing delivers! If I shot the gigs with 2 VX2000's (or 2 170's) I'm sure it would look okay, but I wouldn't be able to put it side by side with broadcast tv.

 

[Monglane]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

I will let Barry Green and other knolwedgeable folks here answer your other questions, but here are a few things I can tell you as a (relative) newcomer to the world of video/cinematographing :

A. The information from this UK site you mention under (1) is outdated. It applied to the older DVX100. The DVX100A (only model now available) has none of those drawbacks.

B. Over the last 18 months I shot about 200 DV tapes and never had one single dropout, mosaic or any such thing. In my opinion, the increased reliability of the DVCAM format is a thing of the past, *provided* you use the right tape for your camera and never change.

C. The Sony is arguably better in low light, but then it has to be very, very low light. I personally haven't encountered any filming situation the Panny couldn't handle. And in such a case, you light properly anyway, like all the vaunted "pros" do.

D. My guess is that your dealer gets a better margin on the Sony, plain and simple. And if they insist so much on the DVCAM aspect, it's a pretty lame argumentation, and that tells a lot. And as far as the "you won't get into film festivals" thing is concerned, that's such a blatant lie that I would walk away from that dealer, if I were you : to give you just one example, the movie that won the *Cinematography* Award at the last Sundance Festival was shot with a DVX. ;D It has also been mentioned time and again on this forum that several US TV stations use the DVX.

E. "Pan the camera like a film camera" means slow, easy and even panning.

F. Of course the Panny has sound level bars. Haven't you tested both cameras yourself already ? If not, you should. The calibration of sound level bars has been extensively discussed on this forum (do a search on the subject).

G. You mentioned earlier the Sony's B & W viewfinder. On the Panny, you have the option to use the viewfinder in B & W as well.

 

[Yue]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

This message is in reply to Barry_Green:

1.Regarding the some feature being disabled I read this at http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/gimme/storereframe.php?view=item&item=sony_dsr-570wspk-cvp
They are a dealer in the UK. This is there exact quote:

"Progressive Scan mode (25fps) - I suspect that this much hyped feature will be of little use to all but those users who are specifically wanting to emulate the flickery frame rate of film because in this mode the camera's sensitivity is drastically reduced and gain control / auto focus are disabled too"


Could you explain what you meant by no features are disabled as well as what are they talking when they are speaking about the sensitivity is drastically reduced in 25fps.


2.From what I understand of what you are saying the only advantage
of DVCAM is a less tendency of dropouts? DVCAM tapes cost $22 in Canada compared to Mini-DV which is about CDN$8. Is does not seem like it is worth it to have the DVCAM option then.

3. Could you go into more detail about what you said about shooting in film. How do you avoid getting the sketchy image? How do you pan like a film camera? (sorry I am new to this):
You were told this by someone who doesn't know how to shoot film. To fix it? Pan the camera like a film camera and you'll get footage that looks like what a film camera would deliver.


4. I live in Canada and I have talked to a few Panasonic dealers (in Canada) and they do not offer extended warranty pass the original 1 year after you buy it. As anyone in Canada got a extended warranty for a dvx100ap and from where?

5. Just before I ask this question I must say I am very ignorant. What does a wide conversion lens do? What do you use it for? Should I buy one? Is the AG-LW7208G good? How much does it cost?

Also the same question for the 16:9 conversion lens.

Is the wide angle lens on the dvx100ap good enough?


6. I have heard about how much the DVX100AP is good to get the filmic look. Now how does it do for documentaries?

7. The Sony PD-170 has sound levels bar to see if the sound peaks. Does the DVX-100AP have a similar feature?

8. Most of the info I got is from a Sony and Panasonic dealer. He keeps on convincing me to get the PD170 instead of the DVX100AP. He gave most of the arguments that I gave in my first post about the camcorders. He keeps on telling me that DVCAM is professional grade, that it is the standard for broadcasters, and no one will buy my work if it is not professional grade (i.e. tv networks, distributors, dvd,...). Also, he says that I will have a hard time getting into film festivals. He is really pushing the dvcam feature and trashing mini dv. Is he just trying to sell me the PD-170 because he is getting more from a Sony purchase then me buying a DVX100AP. I do not understand why he is selling the DVCAM feature so much when you guys say it is not that big. Also, he says that 24P is not great and with the PD-170 I can get a better source for my footage. Therefore, when I edit on Final Cut Pro on the cinema look option it will be better than using the DVX100AP.

Is anything this guy is saying is true?

By the way which is the best editing software? Premiere, Final Cut Pro, Media 100, Avid Express ...????

9. Would it be good to buy the american cinematographers manual? There is another one that I forget the name of it has a purple cover. The independant filmmakers guide (is that right)

10. I know that Sony outperforms the Panny regarding lux. How bad is it the DVX100AP in this area or is it just not as good? and what can I do to compensate for it?

11. I plan to buy a mic (ME66 WITH K6) in a few months. I was just wondering is the mic on there good enough to make a simple documentary with interviews, scenic shots and shots of individuals participating in events?


12. Barry_Green where did you get ther expression Bullpucky! That`s hilarious I am going to have to add to my vocabulary.

A big thanks to everyone for answering back to my post

 

[n0signal]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

[quote author=Yue link=board=Links;num=1081923525;start=0#8 date=04/15/04 at 01:31:39]This message is in reply to  Barry_Green:

1.Regarding the some feature being disabled I read this at http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/gimme/storereframe.php?view=item&item=sony_dsr-570wspk-cvp
They are a dealer in the UK.

DVCAM tapes cost $22 in Canada compared to Mini-DV which is about CDN$8. Is does not seem like it is worth it to have the DVCAM option then.
[/quote]

Hey there Yue. I bought my DVX100A from the very place, Creative Video, that you're quoting here. They're a really friendly and professional bunch of guys, but unfortunately their sales reps don't know too many hard facts about the DVX. For instance, at one point the guy was talking about how you can achieve 25p in post, but that the DVX will do it in-camera. I mentioned that doing it in post effectively cuts the resolution though because you're throwing away a field... he seemed to think that this was also how the DVX did it!! i.e. he knew nothing of pulldown and that the DVX was a full resolution 25 progressive frames! It's even got progressive CCD's for chrissakes!!

Anyway, I think it's fairly safe to assume that you should ignore the "review" on their website. They have lots of very qualified technical people working for them, but unfortunately these seem to operate completely seperate from the sales staff. :-/

Also, DVCAM tapes themselves are very high quality tapes because they've got a nice high density as far as I know (hence the big price tag). Hell, you'll find several people on this very forum who use them in their DVX's from what I gather! However, the DVCAM format is what Barry's talking about, which is what the Sony cams can record in. I've never recorded in DVCAM though, even when I used PD150's at Uni, so I can't personally comment on it.

Just my two cents. I was very happy with the service from Creative Video and would recommend them to buy from. They knew I was buying to shoot film and so recommended the DVX to me anyway. I'm just glad that I've been reading this forum for so long and have done my own research beforehand, as everyone should do!

 

[Barry_Green]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

[quote author=Yue link=board=Links;num=1081923525;start=0#8 date=04/15/04 at 01:31:39]
Could you explain what you meant  by no features are disabled as well as what are they talking when they are speaking about the sensitivity is drastically reduced in 25fps.
[/quote]
I mean: no features are disabled. Their info is based on the old, discontinued DVX100, not the new DVX100A. The DVX100A has every feature enabled in progressive-scan as well as interlaced mode. And as far as the sensitivity goes, the DVX gets such high resolution because it bypasses the line-pair summation process. Suffice it to say that in interlaced mode the picture is 1 stop brighter, but in progressive mode it's capable of 33% more resolution. Not a bad tradeoff. Especially when you consider that their beloved PD170 has NO USEFUL PROGRESSIVE MODE at all.

2.From what I understand of what you are saying the only advantage
of DVCAM is a less tendency of dropouts?

Yes, that's right.

3. Could you go into more detail about what you said about shooting in film. How do you avoid getting the sketchy image? How do you pan like a film camera?

This has been discussed in depth here on this site. A little searching will yield a ton of information about this subject. Suffice it to say, you cannot just pan or wave the camera around willy-nilly (like videographers may do), you have to be slow, deliberate, and precise with moving a film camera (or the DVX in progressive mode).

As anyone in Canada got a extended warranty for a dvx100ap and from where?

Ah. Well, that I cannot answer, perhaps there are not extended warranties available in Canada? But if you're in Canada, why are you looking at the 25P version? Shouldn't you be looking at the NTSC 24P version?

What does a wide conversion lens do? What do you use it for?

Makes the field of view wider (like being able to zoom out even further).

Should I buy one?

You won't know that until you try the camera out. Its stock lens is already very wide -- in fact, the PD170 includes a wide-angle converter with it, and the DVX's stock lens is as wide as the PD170 WITH the converter installed. So a lot of people find them unnecessary with the DVX.

6.  I have heard about how much the DVX100AP is good to get the filmic look. Now how does it do for documentaries?

It's unparalleled for film-looking documentaries. It is the perfect camera for documentarians. Of course, if you want your documentary to look like video instead of like film, the DVX is perfect for that as well.

7. The Sony PD-170 has sound levels bar to see if the sound peaks. Does the DVX-100AP have a similar feature?

Of course. The panasonic slaps the Sony silly in audio features. It has everything the Sony has.

8. Most of the info I got is from a Sony and Panasonic dealer. He keeps on convincing me to get the PD170 instead of the DVX100AP.

He is either not well informed about the Panasonic, or biased, or gets a bigger commission for selling Sony products instead of Panasonic. But regardless of the reason, the information he gave you is not factual, it's misleading and biased.

DVCAM is professional grade, that it is the standard for broadcasters, and no one will buy my work if it is not professional grade (i.e. tv networks, distributors, dvd,...).

Bullpucky. DVCAM is Sony's professional version of DV, but every DVCAM deck ever made reads DV format as well. JVC makes an excellent professional camera in the DV format. I sell stuff to TV and broadcast all the time, and it's all edited on DV, not DVCAM.

Also, he says that I will have a hard time getting into film festivals.

I do not use profanity, but that is such an asinine statement that it makes me want to employ curse words. Suffice it to say that that statement is an absolute lie.

He is really pushing the dvcam feature and trashing mini dv.

Then I recommend you buy from someone who knows what they're selling.

Also, he says that 24P is not great and with the PD-170 I can get a better source for my footage.

Okay, this is the most ridiculous thing he could have said. I absolutely refute that, and I would never listen to another thing that guy said.

Is anything this guy is saying is true?

No.

10. I know that Sony outperforms the Panny regarding lux. How bad is it the DVX100AP in this area or is it just not as good? and what can I do to compensate for it?

The Panasonic is about 98% of the low-light performance of the Sony. But in no-light situations, both camcorders will deliver lousy footage. Just add a light.

11. I plan to buy a mic (ME66 WITH K6) in a few months. I was just wondering is the mic on there good enough to make a simple documentary with interviews, scenic shots and shots of individuals participating in events?

No on-camera mic will deliver good results, simply because it is mounted on-camera. You have to get the mic off the camera and over to the subject's mouth before you get decent performance.

12. Barry_Green where did you get ther expression Bullpucky! That`s hilarious I am going to have to add to my vocabulary.

That's a non-profane way to describe male cow excrement.

 

[Yue]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

Thanks for answering all my questions guys. It is really nice to have this ressource.

Oh Yeah. I bought my DVX100AP today. I cant wait to get it!

I put up a post about which mini dv tapes I should buy. Could someone help me out with this one? Should I get the master series or pro series from Panasonic. Would it be fine to get Sony Mini DV tapes?

 

[Phil]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

[quote author=Yue link=board=Links;num=1081923525;start=0#12 date=04/15/04 at 18:02:57]I put up a post about which mini dv tapes I should buy. Could someone help me out with this one? [/quote]

These DVM63MQ. Quoted as being the best for the DVX. And I've also read once you choose a tape, try to stick with it, because switching between wet and dry tapes can clog and mess up your heads.

 

[APDieb]

Re: Sony DSRPD-170 vs Panasonic AGDVX100AP

[quote author=Bradbro link=board=Links;num=1081923525;start=0#7 date=04/14/04 at 22:49:40]I have the DVX100a and the 170's lil brother the VX2000.  I've been filming a band in LA in concert using both camera's.  And although I was surprised at how well the footage from both cams blend together, it's really the DVX footage in 24p that gives it the "ready for VH-1" look. The footage has a professional look and feel, and the sound quality from the DVX is nothing less than amazing.  I'm also a recording engineer, so sound really does count for me and this thing delivers!  If I shot the gigs with 2 VX2000's (or 2 170's) I'm sure it would look okay, but I wouldn't be able to put it side by side with broadcast tv.  [/quote]

My experience is much the same. As a owner of both cameras and a frequent user of others, I second everything said here.

The Sony's are very good cameras. I have nothing to say negative about them other than the audio circuits are poor. They are very nice 60i video cameras and I use them a lot. For a more "polished texture" so to speak, I prefer the DVX100A due to the multitude of looks and very flexible tweakability. Both have their place.

Andrew
Crystal Clear Media