Sony announces FX9 4K camcorder with 6K fullframe sensor

[dadoboy]

How would you rate the C500ii's rolling shutter compared to current S35mm cameras? Was it just better than the FX9 or solid in it's own right?

For both the FX9 and C500 II, I did not whip the cameras. I was just panning quickly, like I do for a real production. I did not notice rolling shutter skew on the C500 II, but it was a trade show and not scientific of course. If I get the chance to be more empirical with the C500 II, I will post the results.

To be fair to the FX9, it is only $11K and as others have noted here it does offer a lot of advancements that the FS7 II does not have. My guess is that Sony will sell boatloads of the FX9, price is just such a strong part of volume sales.

 

[Sttratos]

I checked the FX9 out at Cinegear Atlanta yesterday. The rolling shutter was not as bad as most DSLRs and mirrorless SLRs, not BM pocket camera bad, but neither was it good enough for a professional video camera. Obviously, the sensor is based off one of their SLR sensors.

Wait, what???

 

[Sttratos]

"Why would I choose the FX9 over the FS7 II, or even the lowly Canon C200, just for the full frame view without a Metabones?"

For the true 4k, for the higher rez lcd, for the dual native ISO, for the better color science ( Cineform )

What Cineform has to do with the FX9? I doubt Sony would have one of their cameras shooting to the Cineform codec. But if they are, hey, that's great! Cineform is a great codec.

 

[Samuel H]

Wait, what???

I was already guessing that the a9 and the VENICE were related: it's a stacked sensor and the first layers must be common to both, the VENICE "just" adding a more powerful set of backend layers that provides full readout at max bit rate. The sensor on the FX9 probably is a revised version of that.

 

[dmitrizigany]

Obviously, the sensor is based off one of their SLR sensors.

I kinda hope it is. It would be amazing if the A7SIII would use the same sensor, as it then would make a great b-cam to the FX9.

Alister Chapman reported the FX9’s rolling shutter is about the same as the FS7 in S35 mode and a little worse in FF.

Rolling shutter has never been an issue to me so I’m not too concerned.

 

[marvinhello]

I was already guessing that the a9 and the VENICE were related: it's a stacked sensor and the first layers must be common to both, the VENICE "just" adding a more powerful set of backend layers that provides full readout at max bit rate. The sensor on the FX9 probably is a revised version of that.

No they are not really related. a9 has a pixel pitch of 5.91um and VENICE is 5.94um. The only thing they have in common is the use of Exmor RS tech.

VENICE sensor is also coupled with 16-lane SLVS-EC and several custom ASIC to enable 16bit ADC and <5ms rolling shutter.

 

[Sttratos]

No they are not really related. a9 has a pixel pitch of 5.91um and VENICE is 5.94um. The only thing they have in common is the use of Exmor RS tech.

VENICE sensor is also coupled with 16-lane SLVS-EC and several custom ASIC to enable 16bit ADC and <5ms rolling shutter.

Phew! Bullet dodged!

 

[Guest]

The Fx9 is still a great gig tool. And if the A series mirrorless cameras get Venice colour profiles, then you have some great little cameras to grab gimbal shots and dash cam etc. really potent duo for gigging. If the mirrorless cameras have Venice pp, it would definitely create a little eco system for the one person shooter types. The mirroless bodies can ride along to every gig, giving some peace of mind that you can fet any shot, and you have a comparable back up if all goes wrong.

Sony could have an ace up their sleeve, if they didn’t already dominate.

 

[JPNola]

What Cineform has to do with the FX9? I doubt Sony would have one of their cameras shooting to the Cineform codec. But if they are, hey, that's great! Cineform is a great codec.

I meant S-Cinetone. I mixed up S-Cinetone and Cineform.

CineTONE.

Point being that you get upgraded color science for that premium over the Fs7M2.

 

[Guest]

If the rolling shutter is bad, it will have to drop in price.

I just used the bm pocket 4k, and the rolling shutter was bad. Made me realize, the bm is kind of expensive if is essentially a disposable you hold onto for a year, and then stop using because it is annoying. I thought m43 meant better rolling shutter.

The Fx9 has taken a serious step backnif rolling shutter is bad. Everything else looked to be stacking up nicely.

 

[Guest]

For both the FX9 and C500 II, I did not whip the cameras. I was just panning quickly, like I do for a real production. I did not notice rolling shutter skew on the C500 II, but it was a trade show and not scientific of course. If I get the chance to be more empirical with the C500 II, I will post the results.

To be fair to the FX9, it is only $11K and as others have noted here it does offer a lot of advancements that the FS7 II does not have. My guess is that Sony will sell boatloads of the FX9, price is just such a strong part of volume sales.

How bad is the rolling shutter? As bad as the A7s II in 4K?

I just hope we’re not going down a fud hole.

 

[JPNola]

How bad is the rolling shutter? As bad as the A7s II in 4K?

I just hope we’re not going down a fud hole.

Keep things in perspective. It was one individual, writing anonymously, and basing it all on a few minutes with the camera during a demo. Not on any actual experience in the field. And that individual does not appear to have even done much research into the camera before writing it off as unusable and a horrible product. We don't even know for a fact that this individual actually touched the camera. There is a video online purporting to be Fx9 footage but it is a lie.

 

[Guest]

Keep things in perspective. It was one individual, writing anonymously, and basing it all on a few minutes with the camera during a demo. Not on any actual experience in the field. And that individual does not appear to have even done much research into the camera before writing it off as unusable and a horrible product. We don't even know for a fact that this individual actually touched the camera. There is a video online purporting to be Fx9 footage but it is a lie.

I hear that. Good perspective!

 

[dadoboy]

How bad is the rolling shutter? As bad as the A7s II in 4K?

I just hope we’re not going down a fud hole.

No, it was not as bad as the A7s II, nor as bad as the BM pocket cameras I tried recently. I was trying the FX9 in Full Frame mode, and the rolling shutter - the skew - was noticeable. But not horrible. This was at at an event, Cinegear Atlanta. Not technical testing obviously. It was in Stage 4 of Pinewood Studios. The camera can appeal to a lot of people, but it's not for me.

 

[Guest]

No, it was not as bad as the A7s II, nor as bad as the BM pocket cameras I tried recently. I was trying the FX9 in Full Frame mode, and the rolling shutter - the skew - was noticeable. But not horrible. This was at at an event, Cinegear Atlanta. Not technical testing obviously. It was in Stage 4 of Pinewood Studios. The camera can appeal to a lot of people, but it's not for me.

They only have one Fx9 body in the US at this time, so we both were looking at the exact same camera.

I unfortunately didn’t think to test the RS, as i didn’t think anyone would release a camera with noticeable rs these days.

Red Monstro has some noticeable rs. So, if it is in that ball park, i think it will be useable.

And for action, the s35 4K mode seems like a viable option.


But totally understand, and trust, if you feel there is too much rs. I may go a different direction myself. Unless the mirrorless cameras get Venice style pp, then i might consider the fx9 in conjunction with a mirroless as a interesting jack of all trades dynamic duo.

I am more into solutions, so that is why i hate this whole image quality issue in video, they keep releasing image quality in slow steps and don’t release refined solutions. 2019 we started to see some refinement, which is nice.

 

[Sttratos]

2019 we started to see some refinement, which is nice.

Like what?

 

[Guest]

Like what?

Haha, fair enough. The FF35 throughs the lens game up in the air a little.

What i would say are some nice refinements are:

C500mkii ergonomics and build compared to previous versions. The main flaw being the battery port is too shallow for a good sized battery. So, we see some refinement, but not perfect yet.


The Fuji XT3 on paper made a lot of sense. And it was great to see a company do that with APSC.

Sound devices mixpreII and the F4/F6 are a long way from the H4n and juiced link days.

The Fx9 seems like a mature form factor. Unfortunately the add on is so ugly. But sony made the F5/F55 and the Venice, so they know how to make it look good, but they chose something ugly.

Red Ranger is a welcome addition. The Red DSMC2 and IPP2 all do a pretty good job. Red also finally released a production module for the dsmc.

We’re seeing more internal ND, better codecs and bit rate and bit depths, and auto focus is starting to be a real thing.

Colour science is starting to get good across the board.

Mirrorless mounts make adapting to any vintage lens easy. Interchangeable lens mount is more available for cine style cameras.

The Panasonic S1H has fans and vents. Also the flip swivel screen looks pretty great.

I could go on, but there really aren’t many fully refined tools out there.

I wish there were more classic refinements, and more focus on ergonomics. Currently too much emphasis on being modular or small. Still too much reliance on odd fitting cages and rigs. And i wish image quality wasn’t the main selling point, as that seems to allow for easy product teiring and less need to make a lasting product with true refinements.

But hey, i am ok with all that. I just don’t buy anything. The Red Ranger, C500ii, and Fx9 are interesting products. They get a lot right. The Fx9 builds on what the Fs7 got right, and adds some welcome changes. The square back is one of them, imho. You can set it on the ground without fear of resting on the battery stickingout the back. has wireless video to cellphones built in! The Red Gemini is like if Arri Alexa and Sony A7s had a baby, and now the Ranger body is like a thoughtful cinema camera. The fans are so quiet!. And the C500ii is the Canon finally not reinventing the wheel, and taking a more traditional approach, and oh yeah, it has the C700 sesnor in there, but no one cares about that.

 

[Samuel H]

I just used the bm pocket 4k, and the rolling shutter was bad. Made me realize, the bm is kind of expensive if is essentially a disposable you hold onto for a year, and then stop using because it is annoying. I thought m43 meant better rolling shutter.

"good enough rolling shutter" is a VERY SUBJECTIVE thing, but I woldn't say the p4k has bad rolling shutter: it's just as fast as the one from the C200 (16.1 vs 16.2 ms) and not far behind the C700 FF (15.7 ms according to provideocoalition). For comparison, the a7S II 4k, which you also mentioned, is 30.4 ms. All the numbers are here.

 

[Samuel H]

No they are not really related. a9 has a pixel pitch of 5.91um and VENICE is 5.94um. The only thing they have in common is the use of Exmor RS tech.

VENICE sensor is also coupled with 16-lane SLVS-EC and several custom ASIC to enable 16bit ADC and <5ms rolling shutter.

Thanks. The 16-lane SLVS-EC and ADCs and whatnot is what I said was different: the stuff that's in the lower layers of the sensor stack, and outside the sensor. But if the pixel pitch is just slightly different, then the first layer is not the same either!! So yeah, you're right.

 

[Guest]

"good enough rolling shutter" is a VERY SUBJECTIVE thing, but I woldn't say the p4k has bad rolling shutter: it's just as fast as the one from the C200 (16.1 vs 16.2 ms) and not far behind the C700 FF (15.7 ms according to provideocoalition). For comparison, the a7S II 4k, which you also mentioned, is 30.4 ms. All the numbers are here.

The A7s ii in 4K is practically unusable.

The M43 bm pocket 4K has surprisingly noticeable rs. Mainly because i assumed an m43 sensor would be better.

I had no idea the C200 was that slow! Crazy!