Sony A77 release very soon - is this the 5D/7D/GH2 killer?

I've had a look at some RAW images and I'm happy to report you can turn NR off shooting RAW on the A77 and the NEX-5N (I assume the same goes for the NEX-7 and A65), I never thought I'd be so happy to see noise! The question remains whether NR can be turned off in video mode.

Some video info on the NEX-5N in this French review-
http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1294/compact-sony-nex-5n-mode-video-17.html

The gist is there is aliasing and moire but not a lot of rolling shutter.
 
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I received the latest B&H Photo email newsletter today which had a link to the A77 + 16-50mm f/2.8 lens "kit" with a price of $1999.99 ( the body alone was $1,399.99 )

This is an amazing deal that I wish Panasonic offered something similar for the GH-2. ( a fast constant F-stop zoom lens with the GH-2 body )
 
RAW stills and AVCHD files are two very different things but comparable RAW stills are all there is available at this point and they do reflect what the sensors are capable at different ISOs so I've done some pixel peeping and compared identical RAW 5D, 7D, GH2, and NEX-5N images shot at 1600 ISO. The NEX-5N had NR set to low and the result was the NEX-5N stood up very well next to the 5D, it had slightly more noise and was a little softer than the 5D but it was sharper and had slightly less noise than the GH2 and 7D. With NR off it's IQ even looked good compared to the D700, the D3s, and the D3x! (not in high ISO noise performance however) The results @ 3200 ISO were similar except that the noise level on the NEX-5N and 7D was closer. I had a look at some RAW A77 files and they were noisier than the NEX-5N and the 7D but the A77 files aren't displaying properly in Raw Photo Processor so it could be just a pre-release firmware issue but I do expect the 16Mp sensor will have cleaner high ISOs than the 24Mp sensor.


All of the JPEG examples floating around from the A77 and the NEX-5N have noise reduction set to high which looks hideous! The RAW files I've seen with NR set to low look almost as good as the images without NR, so as long as NR is adjustable or can be turned off in video mode it shouldn't be a problem @ 1080p.


So the only issues I see at this point are aliasing, moire, and how much the picture profiles can be tweaked to get the most out of these new toys.
 
John Caballero said:
It looks promising. I am sure they will teak the firmware before release in October. Can't wait. I really need a new toy!
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Out of all the new toys the NEX-5N looks the most promising. Most sensitive sensor (from the examples I've seen) least expensive $600 body, same sensor as the VG20, can adapt almost any lens, super light. The RAW images really hold up well against the Nikon and Canon full frame bodies. There's going to be a big fight over the next 6 months with the MKIII the D800 and a new Sony full frame body due. I just hope they don't push the megapixel count at the expensive of ISO sensitivity.....the D3s is way sharp and only 12 megapixels! The NEX-5N is almost as sharp as the 5D @ 16 megapixels on a crop sensor.
 
@squig: thanks for all that info! when you say the A77 shows more noise, you mean "per pixel" (in a 100% crop of different mpix images) or "per image" (after downsampling the A77 image to NEX-5N resolution)? - - - also, from that french review of the NEX-5N, it looks to have a bit less aliasing/moire than the canons, but it's not problem-free by a long way, let's hope the VG20-A65-A77-NEX7 do better; for comparison, here's the 600D review http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1205/reflex-canon-600d-mode-video-17.html (unfortunately the GH2 review doesn't have a video section, and the one for the GH1 doesn't shoot these charts)
 
Frankly, I can't see how someone would not put the gh2 in the mix when choosing an hybrid camera. With the hack the thing is a demon, it is getting better and better. Later advancement 3 Gop 100+ mbit codec yesterday night. This little thing is just unbelievable. With the 3gop we are reaching avc-intra and it is not just about detail but motion also. I might sound like a fan-boy here but I am a nikon photographer who for video bought a 7D and now a gh2.

I was eagerly awaiting the launch of the Sony's with all the leaked spec etc. expecting some good to big advancement etc. What I find, perhaps a little premature on the photo side, but the video is not going to change dramatically with any firmware, what is the most important is lacking? Image quality still exibit aliasing, moire and the rez does not seem that high. I don't know if I have been spoiled by the hacked gh2, the most astonishing thing is when I open a frame grab, many time I zoom in... forgetting that it is only 1080p image because I mistaken it for a traditional high res photo. Yes it is photo quality video.

For now, for me the Sony's look more like a marketing product. They are feature packed, if you read the brochure there is no other camera at their respective price level that can match them. But in the end the most important is lacking. I was asking myself how sony was going to differentiate its $ 5000 fs100 offering against what on paper looked like very close spec wise cousin costing one quarter less. The more I see some example the more I think that the fs100 will have no problem.
 
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Danielvilliers said:
Frankly, I can't see how someone would not put the gh2 in the mix when choosing an hybrid camera.
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For me, it's because a hybrid is supposed to strike the best balance between video and stills. Having owned both the GH1 and GH2, I'd say they cover the video side, but I found them both unusable as serious still cameras.
 
I'll reserve my final judgement on the A77/NEX-7/A65 until more final production examples appear, better samples and supported still RAW conversion. However, my enthusiasm for them has waned a bit from the samples I've seen so far. I was genuinely hoping that these cams would be a new generation of hybrid camera, which tackled some of the video problems of stills cameras, whilst providing top draw stills image quality and usability. Whilst it's true you shouldn't over-analyse early samples, you can nevertheless get a good ball park estimate of potential image quality. The problem is that these Sony's are displaying characteristics not easily fixed by firmware. I was expecting a 24.3mp sensor to show a bit of noise, but after resizing I expected it to be at least as good as the present 16-18mp APS-C sensors, and really a bit better. But from what I have seen, for stills the 24.3mp sensor is possibly not as good as the 16mp sensor. I'm not basing this on an absolute comparison, but the underlying noise performance I have so far seen, and which is not easily fixed by firmware. Likewise, it appears as if the moire/aliasing problems have not been fixed, and are not on the level of the GH2. I'm no expert on video or the technical aspects, but from what I have seen, these are not things which can be fixed via firmware, and are more hardware properties. I don't think these cameras are bad or useless, just not quite as good as I was hoping for. I'd put off getting a GH2 to see what these new cameras were like. The current m4/3 range is a bit restricted for me as a stills photography tool, this isn't prejudice as I have an older 4/3 DSLR system as well as my Canon system. I was looking more for an all in one solution, as from the stills point of view, having 2 camera systems is a pain, because so many of the accessories are dedicated and can't easily be used cross system wise.
 
This reminds me of the release of the Nikon D7000. Everyone got excited and then it fell into the mix quietly when everyone saw all the weaknesses. But I am happy about the new generation of AVCHD cameras with Sony leading the way.
 
NormanBates said:
@squig: thanks for all that info! when you say the A77 shows more noise, you mean "per pixel" (in a 100% crop of different mpix images) or "per image" (after downsampling the A77 image to NEX-5N resolution)? - - - also, from that french review of the NEX-5N, it looks to have a bit less aliasing/moire than the canons, but it's not problem-free by a long way, let's hope the VG20-A65-A77-NEX7 do better; for comparison, here's the 600D review http://www.focus-numerique.com/test-1205/reflex-canon-600d-mode-video-17.html (unfortunately the GH2 review doesn't have a video section, and the one for the GH1 doesn't shoot these charts)
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I had a close look at RAW files from a bunch of cameras posted on the imaging resource site. I opened each image in Raw Photo Processor and exported them as RAW RGB 32-bit TIFFs. I looked at the full sized images @ 100% in Preview (zoomed out a little to compensate for the 6000 pixel width of the A77 files) looking at the same two areas of each image to determine the noise level and sharpness of each image. I chose 1600 ISO because that's the highest I ever shoot video on the 5D (I generally don't go over 1250 ISO but imaging resource don't have 1250 ISO examples)

A77 RAW files aren't supported by Raw Photo Processor, when I open them they are really flat (low contrast) and I had to mess with the RGB levels. I made some adjustments to pull up the contrast and there was more noise than any of the other cameras. The A77 looks noisier than the NEX-5N at 1600 ISO which makes sense given that bigger pixels capture more light and the NEX-5N doesn't have a mirror stealing 30% of the light like the A77. The A77 isn't noisier than the 7D and GH2 by a huge margin and it's about on par with them for sharpness. Note that the NR was off on the A77 and set to low on the NEX-5N in these tests.
 
I think Sony marketing got carried away with the more megapixel race. It's a shame they didn't put the better to my eyes 16Mp sensor in the A65 so people could choose between the two on the DSLR side. I've been putting off a GH2 purchase too waiting to see what these Sony cams can do. I still need to see what the NEX-5N can do in the video department but as for RAW stills shooting it does look very good and as I said before comes close in IQ and dynamic range to the Canon and Nikon pro bodies for a mere $600! It will look even better with my vintage Leica glass mounted to it.

John you're killing me, it's MTS or it never happened.
 
I'm sure in good hands they'll produce good stuff, but if aliasing and moire' are still there, then technically, in video mode, it's not much of a step up...
In that sense I guess the NEXs are more intriguing because of the different form factor
 
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicDMCGH2/page21.asp

I can't understand how people can say the gh2 is not a good photo camera. In the dpreview review link above, the gh2 is very close to the top of the line apsc Nikon and Canon Camera. It concur with my own experience using a Nikon d300 and Canon 7D. If you don't zoom all your photos 400% the difference are marginal. Now don't hold your gh2 after having hold the Nikon or Canon, this is nasty plastic experience :-)
 
Danielvilliers said:
Frankly, I can't see how someone would not put the gh2 in the mix when choosing an hybrid camera. With the hack the thing is a demon, it is getting better and better.
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Lot of people don't want to have a hacked camera. Lots of good reasons why - voids warranty, stability issues, generally a pain in the a#$ to use. Plenty of great photogs and DPs who simply don't want to have to jump through all those extra hoops.

I use magic lantern on my Canons for my stuff, but for paying gigs I always have an unhacked card at the ready. Even the most reliable hack is still just that - firmware that's not developed by the manufacturer.
 
And the best thing of all is that if somebody feels these cameras are not for them because of aliasing, moire, low resolution, NR issues or whatever, they are not forced to buy them! There are plenty of choices out there from Canon, Panasonic, Nikon. At the end of the day the reality is that Sony will sell many millions of them. And that is a fact. Once they are out quite a few real pros will come around and shoot beautiful images with them and make money. It happens every single time an evolutionary camera comes out.
 
Danielvilliers said:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicDMCGH2/page21.asp

I can't understand how people can say the gh2 is not a good photo camera. In the dpreview review link above, the gh2 is very close to the top of the line apsc Nikon and Canon Camera. It concur with my own experience using a Nikon d300 and Canon 7D. If you don't zoom all your photos 400% the difference are marginal. Now don't hold your gh2 after having hold the Nikon or Canon, this is nasty plastic experience :-)
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The GH2 takes good photos. In my world, that does not make it a great stills camera. It feels slow to focus, and the controls just have never felt right to me in the hand. Compare this with my experiences shooting Canon and Nikon cameras, and it's easy to see why someone looking for a balanced DSLR experience would bypass the GH2, hacked or not.

But the bigger issue is, quite simply, lenses. The GH2 is a consumer-grade photo camera, with consumer-grade lenses to match. Canon, Nikon and Sony all have absolutely amazing 70-200mm f2.8 lenses. The Panasonic has nothing that can even come close. Same with the 24-70mm f2.8 range. This is what keeps me, and pretty much any serious/pro stills shooter from embracing the GH2.
 
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