Some Gain Structure Questions

timapter

timapter

Veteran
Ok, I did this shoot today with DVX, SD302, 416 shotgun, Oktava hyper, 2 x Sony UWP-C1 lavs with (ugh) the standard lavs on them. so thats the gear i used.

the question is:

oleg (exile on the main street) suggested a while back i use the following gain structuring:

-20dB on DVX (line in)= +4 tone on the SD302 (line out), with 10dB attenuation. ALC (limiter) on.

ride peaks at +6-8 dB
run limiting at +16 on the 302


the thing is, I have trouble getting my audio up to +8 peaks - and im not exactly recording quiet stuff (well trained presenters, with good, strong voices etc). Now, I can GET to +8, and above, but in order to get there, im usually pushing the gain pots on the 302 to just below FULL, and the pots to around 2 thirds. This seems too high to me.

Is the mixer Im using screwed? Whats going on here?


i got around it by going -12 on camera to +4 on the mixer, and this gave me a higher overall level at the camera.

Any theories or suggestions?



And one other question - the Sony wireless kits were "breathing" hiss when spoken into - ive been told this is the compander on those units, but surely sony wouldnt put out a unit with noticable breathing hiss? could it be the horrendous stock mic that comes with the kit?

thanks everyone
 
In optimum conditions and MKH60 (almost same output as 416) less then 2 feet from mouth of an average voice I will usually have the gain around 2 o clock and pots dead center. This will have me averaging around +4 or 6db...obviously depending on the speaker.

When going to cameras like the DVX I set the reference to -12dbfs.

I have never used the Sony wireless but I would guess the "breathing" (waterfall sound on the Sennheiser) is a result of the compander. I have heard nothing but bad things about their wireless. Sony makes some good products, wireless is not one of them.

Cheers
 
wabbit, when you say set the reference to -12dbfs do you mean you use the standard tone and adjust the levels on the dvx till it reads -12dbfs?

i still have days where i can't seem to get the levels loud enough on the dvx even though i have nice solid signals when i do the tone.

i'm using an sd 302 with an sd 744t and the sound going onto the 744t is perfect volume wise.

matthew
 
Yeah, I set the reference to -12dbfs for most "prosumer" cameras. For the tone at start of tape I ask if they want -12 or -20 and if I get a quizzical look I just give em -12. For the higher end digital cameras; SDX, Varicam, or F900 they usually request -20dbfs.

Some people want the extra headroom of keeping the peak average levels at -20 but I am fine keeping it around -12 for the better s/n. If I got someone who speaks in the range of Robin Williams then I would put the average on the low side.

At least that's how I do it.

Cheers
 
cool, thanks for the input wabbit. i also am usually getting around +4, but it seems i have to apply more gain to get there. im wondering if it isnt a problem with the mixer.

as far as the sony wireless goes, over here in South Africa they seem to actually be the norm - even with fairly experienced sound men. the big budget guys use dpa stuff. but anyway, i just cant imagine the companding could be that noticable, im going to do some tests and see how noticable the breathing is in a post situation, you dont reckon it could be being made worse by the crummy mics?
 
you dont need -10 db attunuation with 302( that was for 442 or any other +4dbm output mixer which not has varible ttunuation ) , on 302 it warible so the - -6 will be fine . the + 4dbU referens as it regullary set on VU mixers , the attunuation not to crash the input - so it basicaly you can go 0dbu with -2-3 db attunuatin for -20 dbfs .
noW - how hard to push the preamp?- it depends on your mic - the differnce between 416 and octava is 8db the difference betwen the 60 and octava is 12 db , the diference with 4073 is 18 db ,
the common mistake is to think that sd preamps are working the same as wendt or sqn , where you have maximum gain and then you decrise it by steps ( -10,-20 db) or LIKE on ad 261 which have 80-30 db of maximum gain and then you decris it with the fader from the top
so put your fader on 2-3 o clock , now increse the preamp gain until you have your input limmiter activates only on the highest picks .
normaly you will find that with 416 is around +2 oclock on the preamp .
your picks will be around +10dbu for normal lowd conversation - you will have at least 10 db on the fader ( totally 15 db from the unity ) to go up .
dont for get that 302 have a crapy meter which have led every 4 db - make the picks light the +8 on the punch .
for dyalog - esspesially drama 12 db headroom is not enouth .
for example, the stuff iam recording now the scen can go from mambling to shouting whith range of 20 db in seconds - if i was working with 12 db headromm most of my stuff had to be in the gurbadge can .
put your limiters around +16 db ,
the camera alc is only if you like to be more holly then the pop and afraid that the mixer limiter is not enouth
 
ok, i think i get it.

so in terms of gain structure from mixer to cam:

-20 on cam = 0dB tone on mixer with around -2dB attenuation? Is that how you meant it Oleg?

And in terms of channel gain, I should set fader pot to 2 o'clock, and then push the preamp until input limiter JUST activates on peaks. This will probably be when the preamp fader is at 2 o'clock too.

Most production offices here in South Africa (well, at my experience level anyway) dont give any really specific instruction on where dialogue should average. If my peaks are up around twelve, what about softer bits of dialogue? How low can you go before the editor/mixer start freaking out?
 
can someone please translate exile's last message...

i was getting so i could understand most of his stuff but that one didn't take and its something that i really needed to know!

matthew
 
i think my post below exiles was correct or he would probably have fixed my mistake...

"up around 12" in my last post meant -12dB by the way, i just realised even I didnt understand what I had said.
 
matthewd5 said:
can someone please translate exile's last message...

i was getting so i could understand most of his stuff but that one didn't take and its something that i really needed to know!

matthew
Click to expand...
what didnt you get ?
 
well right now i have a 302 but i'm selling that as i just ordered a 442

can you please walk me through how to properly setup the 442 to use with a dvx-100 with both or either the oktava mk-012 or my cos-11 or even my sennheiser 416

i guess i need to better understand the process of using the tone to set the level on the camera and also to understand what to differently for different microphones and how do you figure out what is different.

i have the 744t and i get super sound on that and the levels are great but the levels on the dvx-100a are lower.

when i take the files into adobe audition and add 10db of amplitude they sound just about the same as the 744t without any changes.

so i guess step by step directions on how you set the level and the reason for the steps? if that isn't asking to much.

matthew
 
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