Solution for low audio level with H4n + Rode NTG-2

H

hedron

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I have a H4n recorder and NTG-2 shotgun microphone for film. The problem is low audio level. I have researched about this problem and I knew some points.

Due to the H4n has a weak mic Pre-amp, this recorder is used for some musician to record their music. NTG-2 is a good microphone for a performer in price wise but not the best choice for filmmaker to record the actor's lines. NTG-2 might not have enough sensitivity for weak Pre-amp recorders. NTG-3 has -30db sensitivity. It is a lot better but the price gap is huge.

I figure out some solution and I need advice.

1. new fancy recorder (Tascam HD-P2) + Rode NTG-2
I don't know how sensitivity Pre-amp inside HD-P2's. Even I have a new recorder, I may have same low audio level problem.
I guess fancy recorder may has better and powerful preamp.

2. H4n + new fancy microphone (Rode NTG-3)
I will have better audio level but I am not sure about the gain.

3. H4n + new fancy mixer (Sound Devices MixPre, MM-1 or MP-1) + Rode NTG-2
I am pretty sure about this configuration but I want a simple setup.

Which one will it be the best choice for me?
Please give me some advice of the lists from above or give me some new ideas in ($700-800 price range)

Thank you. :)
 
A year ago I tested my H4n with a friends NTG-2 and found the same issue of low levels. Since then he bought an NTG-3 and I bought an AT875R. I recently tested the two with the Zoom. I find both have similar pickup pattern and virtually the same rejection, but the NTG-3 has boomier off axis rejected sound. Sure the NTG-3 is a better mic and costs 3x as much, but for $190 the AT875R has done a wonderful job for my work. The AT is about equally as hot a mic as the NTG-3 so plenty of levels for great recordings.

Your technique in using a mic will do near infinitely more for quality audio than just the cost of the mic.
 
The sound devices MM-1 will serve both as a pre-amp, and monitor for the boom op. This is a great piece of gear to have in your audio kit. It will absolutely get your levels up where they should be for the zoom, and once you've worked with one, you'll be hooked using it as a boom monitor rig.

hedron said:
I have a H4n recorder and NTG-2 shotgun microphone for film. The problem is low audio level. I have researched about this problem and I knew some points.

Due to the H4n has a weak mic Pre-amp, this recorder is used for some musician to record their music. NTG-2 is a good microphone for a performer in price wise but not the best choice for filmmaker to record the actor's lines. NTG-2 might not have enough sensitivity for weak Pre-amp recorders. NTG-3 has -30db sensitivity. It is a lot better but the price gap is huge.

I figure out some solution and I need advice.

1. new fancy recorder (Tascam HD-P2) + Rode NTG-2
I don't know how sensitivity Pre-amp inside HD-P2's. Even I have a new recorder, I may have same low audio level problem.
I guess fancy recorder may has better and powerful preamp.

2. H4n + new fancy microphone (Rode NTG-3)
I will have better audio level but I am not sure about the gain.

3. H4n + new fancy mixer (Sound Devices MixPre, MM-1 or MP-1) + Rode NTG-2
I am pretty sure about this configuration but I want a simple setup.

Which one will it be the best choice for me?
Please give me some advice of the lists from above or give me some new ideas in ($700-800 price range)

Thank you. :)
Click to expand...
 
Can I ask what is being considered a low level? Average levels in dBFS would help as a great starting point. Thanks!
 
photonashville said:
A year ago I tested my H4n with a friends NTG-2 and found the same issue of low levels. Since then he bought an NTG-3 and I bought an AT875R. I recently tested the two with the Zoom. I find both have similar pickup pattern and virtually the same rejection, but the NTG-3 has boomier off axis rejected sound. Sure the NTG-3 is a better mic and costs 3x as much, but for $190 the AT875R has done a wonderful job for my work. The AT is about equally as hot a mic as the NTG-3 so plenty of levels for great recordings.

Your technique in using a mic will do near infinitely more for quality audio than just the cost of the mic.
Click to expand...

I'm not to knowledgeable with audio. I havethe at875r and I'm thinking about buying the h4n for it.
How is the battery life? I feel like it'd eat AAs like its nothing
 
arextream,

Since the AT875R needs phantom power, expect about 1 hour to 1.5 hours of battery life from the Zoom. That's alright for the corporate type projects I do, but for small indie films, that may not be acceptable. Options to overcome that are plugging into wall power/mains (if you have hot lights and other stuff plugged in, not too much of an issue to plug in the Zoom). Or get a small portable rechargeable battery pack such as this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=503090&is=REG

I use Eneloop AA's and find them to be one of the best rechargeables around.

Paul Buff lighting has a new Lithium Ion portable batt pack coming in a November. Like having the smallest portable generator in 3.5 lbs for $240.

My solution has been to buy an Edirol R-44. Will be testing to see how it will work out for my type of projects.
 
It'll work.
If you open page up, you'll see headphone monitoring jack with mix and level controls (but normally you must control audio on recorder end, otherwise it'll be very strange).
Works using 9V battery.

I do not have this thing.
I have only other ART product. And despite they are not very welcomed by pros, they work quite good. ART sells about 100 preamps for each preamp you can hear here :-)
 
Good recommendation Vitaliy. Just a follow up though: how is the signal outputted to the h4n? I see that the ART pre-amp has only 1/4-inch TRS output. Is that what is to be used? If so, is there any (significant) quality loss issues?
 
qwerty123 said:
Good recommendation Vitaliy. Just a follow up though: how is the signal outputted to the h4n? I see that the ART pre-amp has only 1/4-inch TRS output. Is that what is to be used? If so, is there any (significant) quality loss issues?
Click to expand...

No, it is balanced linear level output.
Buy extra cheap balanced to unbalanced cable or make one yourself.
 
mtan said:
to use with an h4n you would probably want a preamp with a XLR out though
Click to expand...

? Why would that be? Actually I suspect that 1/4" TRS would be happier into the Zoom.

The things I would worry about with than mic pre are gain and noise. It has pretty low gain so I suspect that it wouldn't work very well with dynamics and the noise spect is a S/N spect not self noise so I'm not sure how to interpret that but it looks noisier than I would want. Then there is the general quality of the mic pre. It might be fine, ART has made some good products over the years but I would want to audition it.

It looks like a very good deal so if you can get it from someplace with a return policy I would give it a shot and see if it works for you. If it's any good at all I would get it just for the level control going into the H4n.
 
If you're boosting it up to line level and over a short distance then you don't really need to have a balanced signal. However, the TRS (6.5 mm) outputs on that eBay preamp are actually balanced. As far as I'm aware, the TRS inputs on the Zoom H4n are unbalanced so you could make up a cable going from TRS to XLR to connect the two devices using a balanced signal.

lg_usbdualpre_back.jpg
 
im an audio noob, so forgive my ignorance. if i understand correctly, if you were to connect the art usb pre to a h4n you would go from one of the art usb pre's 6.5mm outputs into the zoom's 3.5mm mic/line intput? and you would be using the Art's xlr for using your mics ? so what would be the benefit of using a h4n over an H1? since you're just using an external recorder to capture what's coming out of the Art usb pre couldn't you just use the H1 line in? or would that result into loss of quality? also, would the DR100 be a better fit than a h4n to the art usb pre. Basically, I need a cheap solution for recording film dialogue which the recorders on their own aren't very good with low sensitivity if i'm not mistaken. so am i right in believing that recording off this preamp with sth like a rode videomic or ntg1 would be better for film dialogue than the recorder itself? one last thing, in terms of sound quality only, would this combo be as good as the Fostex FR2LE?

help would be much appreciated, thanks
 
+1 for an answer on the above.

+ did anybody test the ART? some of the replies here are a few months old.
any verdicts?
 
You can plug directly from the art 1/4 inch into the H4N 1/4 inch, if I'm not mistaken.

I posted another thread with some extensive testing of the H4N and NYG2, and found that if you use an XLR to 1/8 converter and go into the 1/8 input, you get much less noise than if you go into the XLR inputs on the H4N. Also, I found that you get a cleaner signal using the battery on the mic rather than using phantom power on the H4N.
 
thanks markblasco, we're getting warmer...
So we go from the ART's 1/4-inch TRS output balanced output to the zoom h4n's 1/4 input or can we go from the ART's 1/4 to the zoom's 1/8 external mic in? If the latter is the case, and since any xlr mics would first feed into the ART the H4n xlr wouldn't be used, and would that mean that one could use a cheaper recorder without xlr like H1 etc without quality loss? I know i'm repeating myself but I really want to find answers as this might be a good cheap indie solution for getting higher sensitivity without too much noise for film dialogue and + the ART could function as a computer audio interface for editing in premiere pro etc and even for general use, and it would save me another 60$ instead of getting a pc desktop sound card.
by the way this seems to be going out of topic and it will be more difficult to get answers so maybe i should start a new thread?
 
I've been looking at various forums and websites trying to wrap my head around getting the best audio from my H4n and MM-1 preamp. I don't know much about audio and the talk about line level confuses me. I just need to know if this setup will work before I invest in more gear. H4n-->Attenuator-->MM-1? The way I think they would be connected is with a 1/4 inch to Xlr cable from the H4n's 1/4 input jack to the line out on the Attenuator and then connecting the Attenuator to the MM-1 via the Attenuator's line in to the MM-1's line out. Is this correct?
 
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