Should I use filters or style my film completely in post?

H

hisonni

Active member
Good morning guys! Im growing as a cinematographer.

I own a RED EPIC and FS700 with the Odyssey 7Q. I'd like to begin styling my shots in a way that has nothing to do with the lighting. I have a gymnastic comedy I'm doing with an all female cast and would like to use soft filters by Tiffen or even diffusion filters. I believe you can achieve the ams look by using plug ins in post. My question is which one yields the best result? Filtration or Post plugins? Or is it a bit of both? Thanks for the tips!!!
 
If You can achieve the same results You're looking for in post and you feel confident it will work well with your post workflow then there's no reason not to.
Personally, I tend to use practical filters. Not only because I haven't seen any real digital equivalences of my favorites, but also because I rarely get much of a say in post and hence don't always have the power to make a certain plugin or effect be used.
 
I've been grappling with that same question. I can't remember who, but I remember an American Cinematographer podcast where it was suggested to do it in post. I mean, why not, right? Well I think Tolin's point about managing the image especially when you're not involved with the post is valid. Another reason I'm interested in doing it in camera is that I cannot imagine how you can replicate something like a 1/2 Black Pro Mist in post. I just don't trust it. I wish I were further along with my investigation to help but I'll look back.

If you're interested and you can get to it, AbelCine is having a free seminar on filters. I'm going in NY. They have one in LA too. http://training.abelcine.com/camera...esentation-by-ira-tiffen-of-schneider-optics/

I know that certain filters, especially those used to diffuse the edge from a sharp "video" type image work. I think Tiffen DFX has a free download if you want to check out the post stuff. I'll get there too. Meanwhile here's a great video from Tiffen showing various filters on an F55.https://vimeo.com/96143464 It's fantastic.
 
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hisonni said:
I'd like to begin styling my shots in a way that has nothing to do with the lighting. I have a gymnastic comedy I'm doing with an all female cast and would like to use soft filters by Tiffen or even diffusion filters
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Well then you will be in for a shock… Because diffusion and soft filters can most certainly have an effect on your lighting, and vice versa, such as halos around your practicals for example.

My advice, take it or leave it…. Plan everything out in pre-production. If you are going to go the post route, then figure it out ahead of time rather than waiting until everything is shot, changing your mind over and over trying to come up with a recipe.

Going to use real filters when shooting, then rent a couple of sets in varying degrees and styles so you can build the look you are after for each shot type, wide, med, tight, in advance of shooting your feature. It would be foolish to just buy some random filters you haven't used before to shoot a feature based on internet advice.

All the Best!

Dave
 
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Benefits to doing it in post:

Less work for you
More control
Blame someone else if something goes wrong

Detriments to doing it in post:

Someone else making decisions for you
They could screw it all up
Seriously do you want someone else screwing around with your beautiful footage if they don't have to?


Also doing it digitally loses a little bit of the magic somehow.
 
Filters can create some unexpected results that you would NEVER accept in the post but because it was done "for real" you go with the look and that look ends up something that distinguishes the image in some way to others. So my suggestion is if you know what you are doing do it in camera.
 
Test it both ways. Hollywood directors of photography test new things before the main shoot: film, lenses, filters, lighting, special effects --- anything they haven't tried before, they shoot lots of tests.

Physical filters, as has been said, interplay with other things. For example, a soft filter will bloom lights in the shot. A digital softness filter will be more staid. To drift away from your particular filter (soft focus) I would say some filters cannot well be duplicated in post. A polarizer, for example, does a number of things: it darkens a blue sky, enriches all colors, and mutes reflections. Even a neutral density filter, which applies a flat darkening, will work differently for reals than in post, because it forces a wider f-stop, and we all know what that does to depth of field. And there's a certain trend among a small number of filmmakers to put broken pieces of glass in front of their lenses. The effect is lovely and I doubt fully can be realized in post to the same natural and pleasant degree. Which brings me to . . .

There's also something to be said for what I call The Arrogance of the Present. We (and I include myself) tend to fall into thinking that technology has arrived. Even back in 1899, the head of the U.S. Patent Office said, "everything that can be invented has been invented." Ten years from now our cameras and computers will be condescendingly smiled upon. Okay, so it may very well be that your filters in post look indistinguishable from real-life filters. Then again, I still see --- in fact am distracted by --- vidoes with post-added lens flares, color gradient filters, etc. Just because it's 2014 doesn't mean that we're there. Test, and look hard at it all.

Finally (I've ordered this from most important to least) I hate soft filters. Real or post-processed. My personal opinion. They never make the actress look pretty as much as they make me want to squint my eyes because something is obviously wrong with their ability to completely focus. My opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.
 
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As is said above, and should be re-re-re-re-re-re-re-iterated ad infinitum . . . whether you're going to do it in-camera or in post, figure it ALL out in pre-production and then shoot accordingly.

A very bad trap to fall into -- thinking you're "preserving options in post." That's usually shorthand for "let's figure it out later," and it's not going to give you best results. Know what you want before you ever shoot a frame.
 
David W. Jones said:
I happen to enjoy the look of using Schneider Hollywood Black Magic, and Classic Soft filters in 1/8, 1/4, 1/2.
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You've reminded me about low-contrast filters, which I like, as opposed to soft-focus filters, which I normally don't unless it's very, very subtle. In fact many shoots would benefit from a Black Pro Mist 1/8 or similarly mild diffusion.

There's a bewildering assortment of filters that you can buy. But thanks to Google, you don't have to buy or rent them all to figure out which ones you want. Here are a few videos that I've found:

  1. Made in NY. Black Pro Mist on a T3i. The lighter shadows help make it like film.
  2. Filter test on the Canon 5D Mark II. A wide shot of a park in daylight. A few different filters help take the edge off.
  3. Tiffen Filter Tests by Shane Hurlbut, ASC. Compares several filters, with a model in front of lights shining back at the camera.
  4. Tiffen Ultra Contrast Filter test. They seem to magically raise the camera's dynamic range. But the lighting plays a big part in whether it looks filled in or just washed out.
  5. The London Filter Company’s Videos. A collection of videos comparing many filters.
 
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Man, wish I still had my filter tests from film school. One of the best assignments ever: Gave us a box of filters (and recommendations if we wanted to rent some others) and just had to go out and test in a bunch of different circumstances so we could all see first hand the differences.

Of course, doing it on actual film was annoying, because who wants to pay out of pocket for film for filter tests? Not students, that's who.
 
combatentropy said:
You've reminded me about low-contrast filters, which I like, as opposed to soft-focus filters, which I normally don't unless it's very, very subtle. In fact many shoots would benefit from a Black Pro Mist 1/8 or similarly mild diffusion.
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Yes depending on which camera I am shooting with, sometimes I will use a 1/4 lowCon filter in my 138mm drop-in position of my matte box. Something else that can have a nice effect on women's skin depending on the look you are after, is a gold soft FX filter in 1/8 or 1/4.

A complete filter set can take up a lot of space and start to weigh a good amount, not to mention cost a small fortune. I have seen a few folks over the years that had $10k invested in filters alone. On most of the larger productions the DP tends to rent any needed filters as part of the camera package as well as lenses.

I have pared my kit down over the years to make it more manageable. I keep a set of ND hot mirrors, ND Grads, polarizer, and then assorted diffusion filters, mainly in lesser effect amounts like 1/8 and 1/4, but keep a couple in higher effect like a 1 or 2 for when a producer wants a dream sequence or mystic forest.
 
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Digicon? This filter is always in the mattebox when I shoot (C300/1D C), compresses highlight by 0.5-1 stop, nice subtle diffusion with minimal halo/glare, it also somehow makes skintone more pleasant.
 
marvinhello said:
I'm surprised nobody mentioned Digicon? This filter is always in the mattebox when I shoot (C300/1D C), compresses highlight by 0.5-1 stop, nice subtle diffusion with minimal halo/glare, it also somehow makes skintone more pleasant.
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The DigiCon filter is really for dynamic range control, and is not a softening or diffusion filter like the OP is after. The DigiCon will help to raise the black level while reducing the highlight area.
 
David W. Jones said:
The DigiCon filter is really for dynamic range control, and is not a softening or diffusion filter like the OP is after. The DigiCon will help to raise the black level while reducing the highlight area.
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From my experience, Digicon (1/2 and up) does add a subtle amount of softening and diffusion.
 
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