Shotgun vs. Hyper/Super Indoors

saneproductions

saneproductions

Veteran
How often do you use a shotgun instead of a hyper indoors? What kinds of situations make you want to reach for a shotgun?

When I purchased my schoeps cmc6u w/ mk41, I stopped using my shotgun since it was so inferior to the schoeps. I almost always shoot inside and mostly I use the boom for interviews and some b-roll.

For interviews I usually use channel 1 for a sanken cos11 and channel 2 for the boom schoeps and decide which I like better in post (always the schoeps so far).

For b-roll I tend to have a wireless on the teacher and boom the student answers (or something similar for other kinds of shoots).

I guess what I am asking is do I NEED a shotgun? I plan to get one as soon as I need to shot something besides b-roll outside.

I suppose this is one of those questions I will look back at and just shake my head (like looking back at my do I NEED a mixer thread: BTW YES I do NEED a mixer)!!!
 
If the interior acoustics are good enough then you need a shotgun when you need more reach. When you're booming I guess you know by now that inches matter... the shotgun will let you be about 1' to 18" farther away from a mouth and it will sound as close as the hyper did 1' to 18" closer, but the issue isn't so simple as to suggest a higher-end shotgun INSTEAD OF a hyper... MOST interiors will sound better with a hyper... UNLESS the hyper needs to be farther away. See the pattern? Also there are times when you want to cover a larger area or more people then a shotgun will easily allow.

Some interiors will not work with most shotguns. You'll find that a higher end gun will also work in VASTLY more interiors then even something like a 4073a (too MUCH reach). So far I've used a 416, CS3e, and my current 480b/ck69 indoors successfully... fairly often. Even though I highly suggest the 4073a at the price... it doesn't work in many interiors for me... and the me66 rarely worked in any... I'm only mentioning this for others that may read this thread... from your opening post I expect you'll get something higher end when you pull the trigger.
 
if there is no alot of reverb you can work with shotgun without problem , not every mics sound the same , the best i found is the cs-3 which works extrimly well indors , the neuman 81 and schoeps are quit good 2 ( actually 81 is very wide shotgun , even wider then 150 hyper )
 
Thanks Guys!

Ya, I want something very good when I get it. I was thinking about the 4073 as an interim solution. I ordered on for the video production class I teach, so I can try it for free. I still plan on getting the cs3e or possibly a used 416. Thanks!
 
You should be able to find a used 416 in real good shape for $600-800. I got mine from Oleg, and I love it for reaching out indoors, when I can't use my Schoeps.

The MKH-60 is also a nice shotgun for use indoors when necessary. I worked as boom op. recently on a crazy 2-camera shoot that required me to stay up in the rafters with an MHK-60, and I was surprised how great it picked up dialog at distance indoors.

Never used the CS3, but people who own 'em say they are the best for this kind of thing.
 
im using my cs-3e indoors quite often lately in kitchens where the directivity of the mic is helpful (working a pseudo cooking show). its pretty good, but of course for that type of job a lav is a better approach - i still boom just in case they want some nice ambient sizzles and stuff.

what ive noticed with the cs-3e is that even though its CRAZY directive outdoors, (even though its sweet spot is not as miniscule as say an 816), it becomes less unidirectional in interior environments - naturally its an acoustics thing. the only cool thing is that off axis sound isn't horrifically coloured like with other shotguns, it sounds very natural.
 
It souunds like the cs3e is still the "one to get". I am surprised that it is something that you need to have around for indoor use. I will see about getting one.
 
i wouldnt say "need" to have - but its definitely my go to mic in the absense of a schoeps in my kit.
 
yeah, the cs-3e is awesome and if i were you, i'd only be looking at the schoeps shotgun or the cs-3e. what i like about the cs-3e is how it shares some characteristics of the 816, which is INCREDIBLE (i also have one, but dont really use it anymore) but is so inconvenient that you just dont use it often.

if i owned a recorder, i'd post some "on axis versus off axis" stuff of the CS-3e. I flew down to the coast this week to shoot a beach modelling competition (another story entirely), and the way the cs-3e can reject the ocean is FRIGHTENING. Talking about 10-15dB difference between when aiming at the ocean and when aiming away. And thats before the subject even talks! Amazing amazing mic.
 
Here is a Sanken CS3e polar pattern... the rear tail improves as you go up the frequency spectrum. Look at the line where the tail reaches furthest down... now follow that line around to the front... by this you can see that the CS3e has 20db of rejection from the direct front axis to the direct rear axis at 400hz... and again, the rejection response improves from there... yes, very impressive.

What's just as important to note is the SMOOTHNESS of the bubble... this characteristic is why a Schoeps costs $1500... what this tells you is that the microphone will have the same timbre and lack of coloration, regardless of the speaker's position in front of the mic... up to almost 30 degrees off of the direct axis.

cs3-pol1.gif

Sanken cs3e polar plot at 400Hz and 1kHz.

This second chart is the SAME MIC, but at higher frequencies.

cs3-pol2.gif

Sanken cs3e polar plot at 2kHz and 3.5kHz.

What this tells you is that the ratio of rear rejection to front pickup is even further improved at higher frequencies... The reason I had to post this second graph is so that you wouldn't be confused in thinking that you could mic somebody way off axis, since the upper graph appears to be so smooth... as you can see in the second chart... you will start to get a change in timbre beyond about 30 degrees off axis.

Still... let's compare this with a Sennheiser 416's polar response chart... MAKE NOTE OF THE CORRESPONDING FREQUENCIES GIVEN FOR EACH LINE... if you look at the specific frequencies that Sanken gives... and match that with the 416 on those same frequencies... both plots would appear very smooth... with the Sanken STILL leading... but not exactly blowing the 416 away. Where the Sanken truly excels is in the smoothness of the 90 to 180 degree off axis rejection plus the gain of about 4-5db of rejection.


01511_pd.jpg

Sennheiser mkh-416 polar plot displaying 8 frequencies.

The reason to get a Sanken is the more forgiving pattern combined with good rear rejection... the reason to get a 416 is truly bombproof construction at a lower price then the Sanken, with a narrow pattern out front (if you can handle it... and don't need to cover too many speakers). The CS3e is an "everything to the rear is handled" mic... normally I think about the 120 off axis pockets (on most shotguns)... and as you can see even in the lower frequencies of the Sanken this is still a consideration if the unwanted sound is within those frequency ranges... but generally speaking it's nice that it's "point it at what you want to hear and point it away from what you don't".

Sorry for the long post... this just seemed like another good time to explain polar plots and how to read them... and the title of this thread is why I put this here... the fact is that BOTH of these mics can work well in many interiors... and the above polar plots explain WHY they can.

Now check out a plot from the me66... and again ONLY LOOK AT THE SAME FREQUENCIES WHEN COMPARING POLAR PLOTS... but still, even looking at the same frequencies... look how wacky the differences in response are between frequencies... it's no wonder this mic doesn't sound good indoors! All those reflections and minor echoes will be heard in very hard to predict ways! Also... and I've had this argument with some good friends on here... the me66 does NOT have impressive rear rejection! It's only gaining you about 11-12db of cut via the direct rear in the core of the vocal range! Not good for interiors... in these same frequency ranges the 416 is giving you 15db of rejection... and the CS3e is giving you almost 20db! When you talk in a room your voice is bouncing off the other walls... and depending on how well the mic HEARS that bounce... you will have echo. Now do you understand why the CS3e (and other shotguns in this class such as the 416) can do many (but not ALL) interiors?

03284_pd.jpg

Sennheiser me66 polar plot displaying 8 frequencies.
 
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Schoeps CMIT shotgun:

fpol-cmit-e.gif

Schoeps CMIT frequency response and polar plot.

Schoeps mk41 hyper cardioid:

fpol-mk-ccm41-e.gif

Schoeps mk41 frequency response and polar plot.

So it is, in my opinion... that the Sanken is still preferable to the Schoeps shotgun... and that Schoeps' OWN shotgun isn't in the same class as their hyper-cardioid mk41. As you can see in the mk41... the polar pattern is a perfect onion from 90 degrees forward... meaning that the only difference in sound from on-axis up over 60 degrees off axis will be in volume and not in timbre... which is ideal for splitting the distance or less then perfect boom placement.

Still... in ALL of this... never forget that proper PLACEMENT of the mic (meaning getting it CLOSE enough) and the ACOUSTICS of the recording environment... will always be tied for first place in the struggle for good location audio.
 
Incredible stuff. Even I am starting to understand what to look for in a mic regarding my specific purpose(s). Thanks Matt!!
 
Wow!! How did i miss this excellent post?

I own the MKH60 and just freakin love how it sounds.

I recently visited the set of a $200k budgeted movie with a sound guy that was toting $30k worth of gear (SD442, SD744T, Lectro 4xx series, Sanken lavs, MKH50, MKH60) and he was rocking the MKH60 for nearly all of the interior audio. It suprised the heck out of me given that he had an mkh50 right next to it in the bag.
 
I'm like a dog cocking it's head to a strange sound in this thread, but its fascinating to say the least and I'd like it to go on for another 10 pages.
 
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