Shot by Shot method question

HenryDee

HenryDee

Active member
On page 132 of shot by shot, Katz talks about the 5 basic camera setups you can have in a triangle system 1. Angular singles ( medium shots or close- ups) 2. master two shots 3. over the shoulder shots 4. point of view singles ( medium shots or close ups)
5. profile shots.

My question is why in point of view singles would you have to be confined to medium shots or CU's. Could you not do a full shot as long as you were paying attention to the rules and the situation obviously allowed it and it made sense. Say if you had two ppl standing across from each other say 20 feet across from each other. would a full shot be ok ? or ...non ? Im just trying to understand why he said it...he clearly knows his stuff im just havin trouble gettin this, I know there has to be a good reason.

anyhelp as always is appreciated.
 
Mostly no, but exceptions do exist.

The triangle system is mainly (in context) dealing with the interactions of two people in conversation or similar circumstance.

A POV shot does not mean it is the literal eyes of the character. POV is an objective shot, meaning the camera will be right off of the eye line of a character. POV brings us to a characters perspective, but we are not seeing out of their eyes, and hence the other character is not looking into the lens.

It is a common misunderstanding that POV is literally from the eyes of the character. If we do see out of an actors eyes, and the other actor looks into the lens, we are in a subjective camera angle. Not POV.

According to "The Five C's of Cinematography" written by Joseph V. Mascelli,
The point of view shot is an objective angle, but since it falls between the objective and subjective angle, it should be placed in a separate category
Click to expand...
He continues to explain.

A point of view shot is as close as an objective shot can approach a subjective shot- and still remain objective. The camera is positioned at the side of a subjective player (actor)- whose viewpoint is being depicted- so the audience is given the impression they are standing cheek to cheek with the off screen player (actor)
Click to expand...
With that clarified, it would be impossible for a normal conversation between two people to have an objective full body shot from the eyes of the person right next to them. We would have to pull the camera back and we would be able to see the person who's POV is supposed to be our sight.

The exception would be to have the two people be very far apart. Almost comically.
Then the wide shot of the two would become a long shot (very far), the two shot a wide shot, and the objective POV shot could realistically be a wide full body shot of the opposite actor.

So in short:

People standing at normal distance cannot have a POV which has the entire person (ws) in frame.

People standing far enough away could have realistic POV which has the entire person (ws) in frame.

Let me know if I explained that funny.
-rpo
 
I actually think you explained it perfectly, Im just tryin to wrap my head around it. cuz he puts in brackets (mediums and close ups) in both angular singles and POV singles...just tryin to get it lol. thanks for responding... once I sit down and read over what you said a couple times Im sure I'll post back and be like I GET IT !
 
I think I get it ...I'll use sitcoms for example since they use the triangle system a lot.. say on the set of Everybody Loves Raymond, If Ray were standing on the stairs in his living room going up to the second floor and his wife Deborah was at the entrance to there kitchen and they were having a conversation, (quite far apart).

It would be silly to have full body shots in say Angular single's or point of view singles because the triangle system is used more for intimate shots and having a shot from that far back wouldn't be to intimate. Plus a lens that could pull back and show a wide two shot of them talking would be silly too use on a sound stage I'm guessing.

If ur still around Ryan am I kind of getting it ? or way off still ?
 
I think you might have it. The scenario with the stairs is a good example. A POV shot (a shot where the camera is 'cheek to cheek' with the actor) can in this instance be a full body shot of the other person.

The reason POV shots were listed as mediums and close ups (in the book you mentioned) is because, if two people were close together it would be impossible for a camera to be 'cheek to cheek' with the character and be able to see the full body of the person. Perhaps a SUPER wide angle lens could but our eyes can't naturally do that.

So, going back to the original question: Yes it is possible to have a POV shot which can have a subjects whole body in frame, but the actors have to be far enough apart.

It would be silly to have full body shots in say Angular single's or point of view singles because the triangle system is used more for intimate shots and having a shot from that far back wouldn't be to intimate. Plus a lens that could pull back and show a wide two shot of them talking would be silly too use on a sound stage I'm guessing.
Click to expand...

These statements seem to be all about shot choice which is totally up to the story teller. Nothing is necessarily 'silly', but make sure that the shot makes sense in a physics/real world type of way. Standing close to somebody does not allow you to see their whole body in POV. Simple as that, which is why books may list POV's as MS's or CU's, etc.
 
Im just starting off on understanding camera movement and cinematography so I probly dont make a whole lot of sense...but seriously thank you for your help.
 
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