Shooting a Feature - Need Adapter and Camera Package Advice!

O

ozzymandius

New member
I'm in pre-production on a feature film and I'm hoping to get some advice from the more experienced shooters out there. Decided to post in the 35mm adapter forum as my main questions center around filmic image quality.

Condensing a long story:


  • My $75,000 thriller-horror film has a good chance of a limited theatrical release (a dozen cinemas) due to some business relationships I've developed. So I need it to look as good as possible on the big screen. If the limited release is profitable, it could always expand to more cinemas.
  • I've been an avid reader of DVXUser for several years, but have been totally out of the loop the last 18 months, as I've focused on script writing. Seems there are a lot of new camera and adapter choices out there.

What I currently have access to:


  • I own: An HVX200, Letus Extreme, and old-school 35mm Nikon lenses
  • I can borrow: A friend's Sony EX1 and Letus Elite

Given my ultra tight budget (most of which is going towards make-up and digital FX) I want to get the most cinematic images possible. I know most of that has to do with hiring the right DP. However, which of the following hardware choices would people recommend?


  1. Just shoot with my own equipment. Saves money and the quality will be good enough for theatrical screens
  2. Shoot with my own equipment but borrow my friend's Letus Elite
  3. Shoot with my own equipment but upgrade my adapter to Letus Ultimate (or some other adapter?)
  4. Shoot with my friend's Sony EX1, Letus Elite and my Nikon lenses
  5. Same as above but upgrade Letus Elite to Letus Ultimate or some other adapter
  6. Same as above but also rent a 10-bit recorder to get absolute best image quality
  7. Rent a Sony EX3 so I can pair it with a rented Letus relay lens and Letus Ultimate.
  8. Sell my camera package, Letus and lenses and buy a full Canon 5D cinema kit (approx $6,000)
  9. Rent and shoot with some other camera package and leave my HVX at home.

Please keep in mind that I am trying to balance a very tight budget with the best image quality I can possibly get. The latter is especially important once I try to get foreign distribution. The latter is not guaranteed, and I want to also try for a theatrical release overseas.

Other considerations: Half the movie will be in low-light interior and exterior conditions. There will be a number of dolly and jib moves. Some scenes will be hand held "run and gun" action scenes. About 50 FX shots requiring green screen keying.

I would obviously just shoot with the latest RED if I thought I could afford it, but that looks like it would blow my budget. Too bad Scarlett is not out yet.

Any input much appreciated!
 
Thanks for the input.

But putting the RED aside just for a moment, which of my 9 options would be the best bet, given the particular circumstances and objectives?

I realize that there could be a range of different opinions out there. Just looking for a consensus or two so I can start to narrow down my choices.
 
The HVX in cinema gama makes wonderful filmlike pictures. As close as you can get in this price range - the next best thing is RED. No EX - thou it´s sharper - will come close - they don`t have the Mojo. The way the HVX handles motion is sensational in my book.
Use the Ultimate, every vibrating adapter will drive you nuts.

I shot a teaser last week, that looks really great, besides the GG artifacts from my LEX.

If you can afford it and if it is not too cumbersome, record on a PC via RGB with a Black Magic Intensity card - lossless 8 or better 10 bit. Takes a fast raid and some disc space, but the difference is day and night. Especially when you aim for the silver screen.

Thou I hate hulking around the PC, the cables the inconvenience - I do it as often as possible. Uncompressed out of a HVX looks soooo much better, that you start hating DVCProHD.
It literally blows anything below a RED out of the water and you can almost color grade it like RAW.

On the other hand, its also a big time saver.
I have a guy sitting at the computer. He manages the capturing application (comes with the card), and puts all the metadata in while shooting. So instead of getting files like "7892392.mfx" you get a file like "Scene 1_take 3_good.AVI"

Now you only have to throw all the files, you flagged "good" into your timeline and you got a raw cut.

my ct2

good luck with your project, Frank
 
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how about EX3 with Letus Ultimate grabbed via HD-SDI on laptop with USB3.0 thrue BMdesign UltraStudio PRO ?? all that with Cineform codec ???
 
Postmaster said:
If you can afford it and if it is not too cumbersome, record on a PC via RGB with a Black Magic Intensity card - lossless 8 or better 10 bit. Takes a fast raid and some disc space, but the difference is day and night. Especially when you aim for the silver screen.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that tip. But on one shoot I tried recording to Adobe OnLocation on my Win Laptop. While the recording went smooth, the windows QT footage always crashed my MacPro Final Cut. Could never figure out how to fix that.

So is there a way to record 10-bit to a Mac laptop, as opposed to Windows? Or better yet, is there a compact 10-bit recorder out there that I could use that has been tested with the MacPro Final Cut workflow?

I didn't even know we could record beyond DVCProHD levels straight off the HVX. This sounds like my solution, as I could use the equipment I have now (with an Ultimate) and just change my recording format.
 
leteeci said:
how about EX3 with Letus Ultimate grabbed via HD-SDI on laptop with USB3.0 thrue BMdesign UltraStudio PRO ?? all that with Cineform codec ???
Click to expand...


Thanks. Will look into the cost of renting those EX3 components. Might have to buy a new laptop too. Have a feeling that cost-wise the above set-up might not be much different than renting a RED package.

I still like Frank's idea of recording off the RGB of my HVX to 10-bit or higher. I just have to figure out if that is practical, and if I can ultimately bring the footage to my MacPro editing without crashing.

Has anyone actually recorded 10-bit off of the HVX's component outputs into any kind of laptop or other recorder yet? Looks like the blackmagic solution is brand new. Would hate to be the guinea pig!

I will also be shooting in the desert, so I imagine we would have to rig up some kind of cooling system for the laptop recorder like they did on Slumdog Millionaire...
 
I'd borrow the EX if you can. The HVX is a wonderful camera, however, when I compare footage from my thesis (HVX) to recent footage (EX3) the HVX just looks soft. Although, I have never seen uncompressed footage from the SDI of the HVX. Another option would be to rent an AJA KI PRO. The difference won't be huge but you will have more leeway with color and better gradations.
 
im with the hvx and letus, I think it has nice film like look. The sony to me is a great docu, or reality show cam. But it doesn't have that great film aesthetic the hvx has. I love the idea of recording straight to pc. it may be a pain at first, but you get used to it. I would save as much money as you can to market the film too.
 
DDort thanks for the rec on the AJA KI PRO. That looks like it could be exactly what I am looking for, as it is a 10-bit recorder that records directly into Apple ProRes QT files.

Has anyone out there used the AJA KI PRO with the HVX? Will it really allow me to pull uncompressed video from the HVX's component out in real time?

If so, all I need is that recorder and the Letus Ultimate and I'm good to go!

PS. maranfilms - thanks for your vote on the HVX.
 
Get NanoFlash instead of AJA unless you plan to shoot in controlled studio environment only (and you mentioned run and gun shooting) - AJA is simply to big. Nano doesn't record 10bit, but it's not really as important as the bitrate and color subsampling. 8bit 4:2:2 Nano footage can be graded quite aggressively without ugly artifacts and it does keying pretty well, too...
Be aware of the following DOF adapter disadvantages (as compared to DSLR):
- dust (real problem, can ruin your footage and kill your budget)
- light loss (do you have powerful lighting kit? you might need some really big lights and a genny - the budget will suffer again). if you plan to use available lighting you will phraise Canon...
- rig size (if you plan some steadycam shots, better forget about adapter).
- if you plan some deep focus shots, vibrating adapter will limit your aperture
- buzzing noise from adapter which is definitely audible in close-ups
Still, I much prefer HVX+adapter image to DSLRs... But production is much more demanding and expensive.
Regarding EX1 - it can capture sharper pictures, but you better spend some time testing and tweaking it before starting shooting. It requires a lot of adjustments to get colors right. Panny is great right out of the box...
 
Thanks Trez, but it looks like the NanoFlash can only accept SDI or HDMI. The HVX outputs neither. And even if I could get a converter for the firewire out, there is no signal from firewire in 24Pn mode, which is what I would be shooting.

Too bad, as the NanoFlash is much more price effective and more compact than the AJA. But hopefully I can find a good price on AJA.
 
ozzymandius said:
Thanks for that tip. But on one shoot I tried recording to Adobe OnLocation on my Win Laptop. While the recording went smooth, the windows QT footage always crashed my MacPro Final Cut. Could never figure out how to fix that.

So is there a way to record 10-bit to a Mac laptop, as opposed to Windows? Or better yet, is there a compact 10-bit recorder out there that I could use that has been tested with the MacPro Final Cut workflow?

I didn't even know we could record beyond DVCProHD levels straight off the HVX. This sounds like my solution, as I could use the equipment I have now (with an Ultimate) and just change my recording format.
Click to expand...

Forget OnLocation. I´m a beta tester and I know what I talk about.
OnLocation records only DVCProHD and yes, there where problems in previous versions - crashing and all. The CS5 Version is pretty stable now and the files are usable but it is still compressed so you gain nothing over Firestore or P2.
Unfortunaly (and we tried everything to talk Adobe into it) OL does not support any capture cards.

Here comes the good news. Black Magic Infinity card is under $200, works fine on any MAC and comes with a rock solid uncompressed capture application.

All you need is the card and a component cable.

Laptops are not fast enough to deal with uncompressed. You need a PC and a fast Raid.

Your next best bet would be a black magic card and Cineform. CPU hog but you can record on any halfway decent hard disk - no raid.
I don´t know if your Laptop is fast enough (CPU wise) and you need a card slot and a adapter.

And there is also CINEDECK - absolute the most elegant solution but expensive.



best, Frank
 
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Can I just throw a monkey wrench into the works? What are you thoughts about audio? I recently DP'd a feature and it looked beautiful, but the director/producer did not put as much thought into audio and now there are problems and disappointment in post. We used a PStechnik + zeiss superspeeds + EX3 Camera package (camera, lighting and grip package was easily half of a million dollars retail). Audio package was less than $5k retail.

I am of the mindset that it would be better to have a really well rounded modest production, than a pimped but unbalanced production. You can get great images from an HVX, Letus, Nikkor package (if you know how to use it). Use the rest of the money for great actors, crew, Audio and Lighting. If money is left, upgrade to cinema lenses and something like the Ultimate first. If money is still left, upgrade your audio and lighting package.


Jason
 
Good monkey wrench - and one that I already accounted for. Sound is of primary importance and fortunate for me I know some great sounds guys with their own equipment who owe me favors. So I will have great sound on this film.

Back to the imaging - my head is spinning with the potential choices. Great info from Frank. But my budget is so tight that at most I might go with the AJA Ki Pro and forget about the Letus Ultimate. I will use my plain old Letus Extreme and Nikon lenses.

So the only added expense is about $4k for the AJA. And for that, I get significantly better imaging that should hold up perfectly fine on the big screen.

AJA is bulky though, so I might have to replace some of my run and gun shots with well planned dolly moves, for a more classical action feel. Or maybe just find a really strong camera man!
 
All great ideas, I think you have some really solid info to base your thoughts on. One more thing. Do your best to tuck away 7-10% of your budget for unexpected mishaps. You will be glad you did. If none come up. use the remaining for marketing your film. I know you said you possibly have a theatre release, but just in case. And don't forget to look into production insurence if you have not done so. better safe than sorry. good luck
 
Hey Ozzy, where are you located? I'd really push for the upgrade from the Extreme/Elite to the Ultimate adapter. You'll appreciate the spinning GG way more than the vibrating.

Also, lighting is key, especially when using an adapter (with the light loss), but one thing a lot of filmmakers overlook is the importance of a good light set up. If you have a good DP, you should be covered. Also audio, but you already said you have that.

Good luck.
 
Thanks. Located in L.A.

I would love to upgrade to the Ultimate but right now the economics don't add up. The Ki Pro will set me back about $4k. The Letus Ultimate is another $4k. I can't justify spending a total of $8k in camera upgrades. At that point, it would make sense to just put that money towards a RED rental, or buy a complete DSLR kit - if I could even afford that much out of the budget.

That being said, I will still hunt around on eBay over the next couple of months to see if anyone is selling the Ultimate for cheaper and/or see if I could barter for one from a local filmmaker.
 
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