Shooting a Daytime scene on GH2? Nd filter or Polarizer when I need both?

J

J.F.R.

Carbonite Member
Think a group of people performing a song in a front yard (Music Video). Just to keep it simple I want to shoot at 24mm focal length , f/2.8 aperture, iso no higher than 640, and shutter speed at 40 for 24fps and 120 or higher for when shooting 720 60fps (for slow-mo).


Problem is you need an ND filter to keep your shutter speeds and aperture within the settings I want, but a polarizer is also excellent to use to limit the amount of reflections in a shot. Also a polarizer can help keep that sky blue. Unfortunately for this budget I can't afford HMI lighting, so possibly reflectors and mirrors will help bounce light. So my question is what do you do when you need an ND filter as well as a Polarizer?

thanks
 
Yes, you can mount both filters . . . provided they are properly threaded. You will experience an exposure variation when you rotate the polarizer though.
Also a matter box is not necessary. It is a convenience. To remove any flair you can flag it off, or simply use you hand as an eyebrow.
 
J.F.R. said:
Think a group of people performing a song in a front yard (Music Video). Just to keep it simple I want to shoot at 24mm focal length , f/2.8 aperture, iso no higher than 640, and shutter speed at 40 for 24fps and 120 or higher for when shooting 720 60fps (for slow-mo).


Problem is you need an ND filter to keep your shutter speeds and aperture within the settings I want, but a polarizer is also excellent to use to limit the amount of reflections in a shot. Also a polarizer can help keep that sky blue. Unfortunately for this budget I can't afford HMI lighting, so possibly reflectors and mirrors will help bounce light. So my question is what do you do when you need an ND filter as well as a Polarizer?

thanks
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Why use f/2.8 for a 'group'... f/5.6 or f/8, that's 2-3 stops that you don't have to ND, would allow for group members to be slightly out of the plane of sharp focus, and still appear sharp.

You can 'stack' ND filters and polarizers. You can buy screw on type filters. However, as you add layers of glass, you will get more potential light 'scatter/reflections' and degrade the image. Make sure no 'sun' hits near the front of the lens or the glass ND/Polarizer stack. any small amount of direct sunlight on the glass, or even the 'edges' of the filters, may cause flare.

For some shots I would stand with a card shading the lens front if the sun was shining from that direction to provide shade. A matte box would have mitigated this.

Polarizers are good to make the sky a deeper blue, and graduated ND filters can also help in that regard.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
Why use f/2.8 for a 'group'... f/5.6 or f/8, that's 2-3 stops that you don't have to ND, would allow for group members to be slightly out of the plane of sharp focus, and still appear sharp.

You can 'stack' ND filters and polarizers. You can buy screw on type filters. However, as you add layers of glass, you will get more potential light 'scatter/reflections' and degrade the image. Make sure no 'sun' hits near the front of the lens or the glass ND/Polarizer stack. any small amount of direct sunlight on the glass, or even the 'edges' of the filters, may cause flare.

For some shots I would stand with a card shading the lens front if the sun was shining from that direction to provide shade. A matte box would have mitigated this.

Polarizers are good to make the sky a deeper blue, and graduated ND filters can also help in that regard.
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Thanks for the tips, also I'm not worried about flares as I actually like them and often look for them when possible. I think I'm just going to use an ND filter and frame low trying to keep the sky out of the shot. While I understand you saying to shoot at f/5.6 f/8 I never shoot that high and is not a look I like at all. The highest I shoot is f/4.0-f/5.6 I don't really want everyone in focus, my main concern was really the ND and polarizer, but I'm just going to use an ND. It's not that serious

thanks for the help everyone
 
Shooting at 4 on a Sunny day is basically going to be impossible. The amount of ND you'll need is likely going to trash the image quality.
On a side note, IMO, 90% of footage should be shot between 5.6 and 8. Only going above or below when artistic reasons or necessity make you do it.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
Shooting at 4 on a Sunny day is basically going to be impossible. The amount of ND you'll need is likely going to trash the image quality.
On a side note, IMO, 90% of footage should be shot between 5.6 and 8. Only going above or below when artistic reasons or necessity make you do it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, nothing drives me more 'wild' relative to 'negative feelings', than seeing someone's nose out of focus while their earlobes are in sharp, or the back eye in 'sharp' and the front soft, because someone is using a very shallow DoF...

And if I want 'bokeh'... all I need do is take off my glasses... the entire world is transformed in to one large 'screen of bokeh'...
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
Yeah, nothing drives me more 'wild' relative to 'negative feelings', than seeing someone's nose out of focus while their earlobes are in sharp, or the back eye in 'sharp' and the front soft, because someone is using a very shallow DoF...

And if I want 'bokeh'... all I need do is take off my glasses... the entire world is transformed in to one large 'screen of bokeh'...
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The beauty of art is opinions, just because yours may different than mine does not make either's correct. Plenty of movies I grew up loving and watching had many scenes focus on the foreground and the background out of focus. Having an entire scene in focus was something that always reminded me of almost like a real world look, soap opera, television, etc. Certain scenes yes look nice with everything in focus, but generally I love shallow dof. This is my look and what inspires me. No need for anyone to dislike anyones view on things. These are mine. A simple example of this short test movie shot on an F3 would be a similar look I would like to achieve

 
If you eat an ice cream sundae at every meal, ice cream sundaes will stop being a "treat". If you shoot everything with shallow DOF, shallow DOF will stop having any impact on the viewer.
 
gonzo_entertainment said:
If you eat an ice cream sundae at every meal, ice cream sundaes will stop being a "treat". If you shoot everything with shallow DOF, shallow DOF will stop having any impact on the viewer.
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Every Movie I see in most focused to attention shots use shallow DOF. Something I always loved. Furthermore I clearly said not every shot calls for it, but generally this is how I prefer shooting. Most shots of everything in focus in every scene looks weird and not normal to me. Imagine shooting a dialogue scene of someone in an apartment and you can see things way off into the background that hold no significance to what is currently happening. That's just one example, when there are many.

Also your analogy is a choice, a preference. If someone wants ice cream after every meal and enjoys it, there is nothing wrong with. Only when I was in the military could I ever think of Ice Cream being a gift once a month. My mind is, if you want something everyday, do it. If you love something just because you do it everyday doesn't take anything away from it. I normally only shoot 2 to max 3 projects a month that's more than enough space and time to when I create art that I never feel it is being overdone.

I'm going to end this here as it seems my thread has been derailed by the opinions of shallow dof. Create art with freedom, mind is limitless. As long as I am happy and the others I work with are, that is what truly matters
peace
 
Don't really know what your location setup is like, but if it's feasible then consider softening and reducing the overall light by using large expanses of white muslin between your subjects and the sun. Just a thought.
 
It called "being a one trick pony". Just as shooting every scene with deep DOF would be.

To the original question, answer still stands. Stacking enough ND on the lens to shoot at 4 or under on a sunny day has a very very high probability of trashing the quality of the image by screwing up the colors and other effects. You use ND on a sunny day so you can shoot at 8 or 11 and not get the bad effects you get from shooting at 16 or 22.
 
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gonzo_entertainment said:
It called "being a one trick pony". Just as shooting every scene with deep DOF would be.

To the original question, answer still stands. Stacking enough ND on the lens to shoot at 4 or under on a sunny day has a very very high probability of trashing the quality of the image by screwing up the colors and other effects. You use ND on a sunny day so you can shoot at 8 or 11 and not get the bad effects you get from shooting at 16 or 22.
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Really? Maybe it's where I live, but I've used my cheap 60$ vari ND to get down enough to shoot f 2, even on sunny days. There's a negligible sharpness difference, little color shifting. There is a loss of contrast that's remedied in post or in camera. There's some vignetting in of the corners, but a mask and CC can balance it out.

I imagine it's much easier with an actual good ND filter.
 
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J.F.R. said:
Thanks for the tips, also I'm not worried about flares as I actually like them and often look for them when possible.
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Lens flare is generally not the same as filter flare... especially cheap filters tend to flare and reflect in very ugly ways. Probably not what you want.
 
FWIW, I think in some cases shooting at f/4 or f/5.6 can give a much more natural DOF that's still shallow without being overbearing - the classic DSLR 'let's shoot everything at f/1.4' 'trick'.

To get a bright sunny day down to f/2.8 you're probably looking at a pola and an ND 0.9, 1.2 or higher. The effect on your image quality? I'll leave you to test that out. I often find wide shots with super shallow DOF to be offputting, unless used for a specific reason, so I don't see any reason for your wides to be at f/2.8 on a sunny day, and then as you punch in closer, your DOF will be inherently shallower. Even at f/4 or f/5.6 and 85mm will give you relatively shallow DOF.

The other thing to consider in your reference video is that not only were the wides in deep focus, but also the fact that it was shot on an overcast day. I've metered overcast days at f/5.6, f/8 and f/11. In most cases simply sticking on a pola will bring your f/5.6 down to a 2.8. In any case, it's easier to bring an overcast day into the realm you want to shoot. On sunny days, it depends where you are but I've metered f/22, f/32, f/45. Have fun getting that to f/2.8..

DBP said:
I've used my cheap 60$ vari ND to get down enough to shoot f 2 [...] There's a [...] sharpness difference, little color shifting. There is a loss of contrast [and] there's some vignetting in of the corners
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Hm, sharpness loss, colour shift, loss of contrast and vignetting sounds like a degradation of image quality to me, no matter how 'little' or 'negligible' it might be.
 
jax_rox said:
FWIW, I think in some cases shooting at f/4 or f/5.6 can give a much more natural DOF that's still shallow without being overbearing - the classic DSLR 'let's shoot everything at f/1.4' 'trick'.
Click to expand...

The Wife and I have shot 35mm for 35-40 years now... usually at f/8, or at least 2 stops down from wide open. The only time we have shot wide open, and one of her old Nikon F lenses I'm using now is F/2... is when the light was so low, and we needed the shot... without flash for some reason...

We both do not care for' the shallow DoF 'look' for the most part... sure, occasionally someone will have a image that 'looks good' but for the most part, just better positioning of the subject will 'bring' the subject out of the background.
 
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