Setting proper mix and levels

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David Evans

Well-known member
Hi guys,

When you're finishing sound mixing (I'm using Davinci Resolve to edit the full project), where do you place the loudest sound in the mix? I think Resolve is full scale, so it maxes at 0db. The most audible bit in my project should be the voice over which I'm placing at -5db at its loudest. Soundtrack is around -20 to -10. Everything else is falling where it should, accordingly. I've been using generic speakers to edit (I don't have monitors) and now I'm doing a pass using headphones. Everything sounds nice except if I do a stress test and push the volume way up. I mean, way louder then it's comfortable. In that case, the hisses in the voice over start to appear, but this is to be expected right? Or am I supposed to get everything lower in the mix? I was watching an episode of Hannibal in the same system, using the same headphones and no matter how far I push the volume in my PC, it never gets that loud. I mean, it was definitly mixed to be way more silent than my project.

Any trick I'm missing here?

Thanks!
 
The relative dB balance 'number' is meaningless .. use your ears as long as it's not clipped. The overall mix level depends on the project's destination. For instance, TV broadcast mostly uses the LU scale. Typically the ATSC standard in the states) is -24LU (integrated). For the web and and DVD/BU, the 'recommended' loudness is between -14 and -18 LU. Broadcast monitoring volume is usually based around the -20dB= 85dB SPL (pink noise). Calibration files are available through Blue Sky and elsewhere. Accurate monitors and a decent room are critical as well
Also download the PDF 'Techniques-for-establishing-and-maintaining-audio-loudness' paper from atsc.org.
Audio CDs OTOH are usually mastered to be .. as loud as possible. (search 'loudness wars' for more info)
 
Rick R said:
The relative dB balance 'number' is meaningless .. use your ears as long as it's not clipped. The overall mix level depends on the project's destination. For instance, TV broadcast mostly uses the LU scale. Typically the ATSC standard in the states) is -24LU (integrated). For the web and and DVD/BU, the 'recommended' loudness is between -14 and -18 LU. Broadcast monitoring volume is usually based around the -20dB= 85dB SPL (pink noise). Calibration files are available through Blue Sky and elsewhere. Accurate monitors and a decent room are critical as well
Also download the PDF 'Techniques-for-establishing-and-maintaining-audio-loudness' paper from atsc.org.
Audio CDs OTOH are usually mastered to be .. as loud as possible. (search 'loudness wars' for more info)
Click to expand...

Thanks for helping, Rick! Well, this is for film festivals, so theatrical deliverable. The thing is, when I'm listening with headphones at about 75%, it sounds good. 80% sounds ok as well. But above 90%, it's just too loud, and essing sounds in voices start to emerge (which are not there at 75%). So maybe this is a matter of getting everything lower in the mix? Make the audio more silent?

EDIT:

This may sound stupid, but I was listening in Media Player and on VLC, and it definitly sounds better on Media Player. Almost like it has a limiter. Does this make sense?
 
I always mix and balance the same and to my usual broadcast levels of peak -10dbfs then if I have to deliver for cinema or on-line then just add +10bd of gain for the master to peak at 0dbfs.

Oh and before dynamic range is mentioned I am sorry but we don't all listen to theatrical levels with 20k of PA on the end of it so I mix the same for all of them as 30 db of dynamic range is more than ample for most things and as for dialogue around 8db is about right.


Loudness and balance is no way related to technical levels and relative loudness depends on all sorts of factors and how you deal with the dynamics of a mix.

I always feel there is too much worry about dynamic range in these digital days and people need to learn more about loudness and delivering a mix that suits their audience and how it is to be appreciated in real terms and not on theoretical specs.

We have been given ears to work with so that is the true reference and the tech specs are just to meet delivery standards to whatever format is chosen.
 
For 'film festivals', all bets are off in terms of loudness levels. That said, I would go with the DVD/BU levels. If you don't have LU/LK loudness meters keep the peaks from exceeding -4 or -6.0dB on full scale meters (dBFS). I would also avoid a multi-channel mix (5:1, 7:1, Immersive). I've heard and read of many instances of incorrectly calibrated systems that totally messed up the sound and down-mixes that took out the center channel (where 99% of the dialog lives). Go with a narrow stereo image or dual-mono to air on the side of caution. If you can get to the venue and audition the PB system ahead or time, you can better judge what you can and can't do.
 
Film festivals are all over the map as to playback levels. Part of that is low/no budget films mix at wildly different levels. As Rick said film is mixed by ear, but on calibrated monitors. You can get pretty close by playing some pink noise at -20dBfs with everything in software set to unity set you amplifier level so it's just uncomfortable and you will be pretty close.

Video is usually mixed to a specification. That spec. varies so it's hard to give any real numbers.

Headphones are near useless for mixing. The stereo separation is much wider than speakers will be and you will hear lots of things you want to fix that just are not audible on speakers. They will also throw your balance way off because small sounds that you can hear in headphones will tend to disappear in speakers.

A good mix on speakers will sound good on headphones, but the reverse is almost never true.
 
Thanks guys.

I get all the "setting things by your ear" thing and when it comes to mixing and EQing, that's how I do it. But the thing is: how do you set your overall loudness? On a phone or a TV, you can always adjust the volume, so that issue becomes less important on that sort of media.

But when you're talking about a film festival, for example, they will probably have it calibrated at a constant volume. How do you know the volume of your film will be adequate to the theatre's projection system? How do you know it won't be too loud or too quiet?

Thanks
 
You need to use your ears, but you also MUST use meters.

Check with the festival(s) for what they expect; they probably have a link or PDF listing their specs.
If you can't get an answer, a great place to start is -3 peak w/-24 LKFS... that's (B R O A D L Y speaking) what PBS expects, and probably won't surprise the festival projectionists. And -24 LKFS is the broadcast/cable target (ie- requirement).

If most of your dialog is around -10 and -20dBfs, and all other sound is appropriate to that audio, then you're probably kind of near -24 LKFS. But that's just a starting point.

A quick Google search turns up a bunch of articles with more info. I haven't read these, but a quick glance makes me think they're useful:

Mixing for Broadcast Loudness
https://film-mixing.com/2016/05/02/mixing-for-broadcast-loudness/

Premiere Pro CC: Loudness Radar and Average Audio Levels
https://larryjordan.com/articles/premiere-pro-cc-loudness-radar-and-average-audio-levels/

Post Production Audio: Broadcast Limiters and Loudness Metering
http://www.soundgirls.org/post-production-audio-broadcast-limiters-and-loudness-metering/

But check the festival's specs, see if you need to submit a DCP or whatever, and maybe consider hiring someone else to handle the audio mix/finishing.
 
David Evans said:
Thanks guys.

I get all the "setting things by your ear" thing and when it comes to mixing and EQing, that's how I do it. But the thing is: how do you set your overall loudness? On a phone or a TV, you can always adjust the volume, so that issue becomes less important on that sort of media.

But when you're talking about a film festival, for example, they will probably have it calibrated at a constant volume. How do you know the volume of your film will be adequate to the theatre's projection system? How do you know it won't be too loud or too quiet?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Well the mixing by ear applies to a calibrated system. You play some -20dBfs pink noise and you set up your playback so each speaker plays a set SPL from your mixing position. On a big mix stage the standard is 85 SPL C weighted. I generally set my much smaller room to 80 SPL C weighted.

You need a SPL meter to do the calibration. There are phone aps that are probably accurate enough for your use. Radio Shack (if they still exist) used to have a decent analog SPL for not a lot of $.

Mixing for broadcast is a different ball of wax and pretty much always has strict numbers you have to hit or their QA department will reject your mix.

My best advice for festivals is go early and talk to the projectionist. Also put plenty of documentation with your film. You kind of have to be there and hand hold if it's a small festival. Big festivals are better but small ones can be a nightmare.

My worst festival experience was actually not sound related. We screened second and the folks who screened first had a file that was "color corrected" on a non calibrated monitor and the colors were way off so the projectionist "fixed it" in the settings and then we came on and it sounded OK but it looked really green and a bit "psychedelic" because the guy never reset the projector. My director had talked to the projectionist and had actually helped him get the projector set up correctly. THen he went to dinner and the other folks came in and screwed it all up.

Having gone to a fair number of festivals from small to large and judged entries for a few, the quality coming in is all over the map. I mean shockingly bad. And I'm not even talking about "artistic" merit, just plain 101 basics like something close to an even mix, dialog that is intelligible, whites that are not totally blown out, sometimes mids that are also blown out.

The fact that you are asking and thinking about quality issues puts you way ahead of a lot of festival submissions.
 
Noiz2 said:
Well the mixing by ear applies to a calibrated system. You play some -20dBfs pink noise and you set up your playback so each speaker plays a set SPL from your mixing position. On a big mix stage the standard is 85 SPL C weighted. I generally set my much smaller room to 80 SPL C weighted.

You need a SPL meter to do the calibration. There are phone aps that are probably accurate enough for your use. Radio Shack (if they still exist) used to have a decent analog SPL for not a lot of $.

Mixing for broadcast is a different ball of wax and pretty much always has strict numbers you have to hit or their QA department will reject your mix.

My best advice for festivals is go early and talk to the projectionist. Also put plenty of documentation with your film. You kind of have to be there and hand hold if it's a small festival. Big festivals are better but small ones can be a nightmare.

My worst festival experience was actually not sound related. We screened second and the folks who screened first had a file that was "color corrected" on a non calibrated monitor and the colors were way off so the projectionist "fixed it" in the settings and then we came on and it sounded OK but it looked really green and a bit "psychedelic" because the guy never reset the projector. My director had talked to the projectionist and had actually helped him get the projector set up correctly. THen he went to dinner and the other folks came in and screwed it all up.

Having gone to a fair number of festivals from small to large and judged entries for a few, the quality coming in is all over the map. I mean shockingly bad. And I'm not even talking about "artistic" merit, just plain 101 basics like something close to an even mix, dialog that is intelligible, whites that are not totally blown out, sometimes mids that are also blown out.

The fact that you are asking and thinking about quality issues puts you way ahead of a lot of festival submissions.
Click to expand...

Jeez... that sounds like a nightmare. Does that still happen now that DCPs have become pretty much standard for film festival projections?

About sound, to sum things up:

1 - Play pink noise at -20dbs
2 - Get SPL reading of the pink noise
3 - Adjust volume until a reading of 80 SPL

Is this it?

Thanks!
 
Not familiar with that app, but if it's relativity accurate or can be calibrated to within a few dB and has A or C weighting, it should work ok for setting monitor levels.
 
Sound Meter looked too basic, so I downloaded Sound Analyser which looks more solid. The problem is that the recommended method in the app for calibration is by comparison. Here's what the App says:

"The calibration by comparison requires a calibrated Sound Level Meter. Set its measuring mode in order to measure a equivalent A-weighted continuous sound level, LAeq. The calibration must be performed with a stable wideband sound source (like a pink noise). Adjust the level of the sound source to reach a sound level in the range 60-80 dBA."

So this looks like it won't work, because that sounds like the exact calibration that I need to be doing to calibrate my sound system sound level... Any ideas wich app might work?
 
Search eBay for an older model Radio Shack (aka, Realistic) SPL meter. They were quite accurate and are still in use today by post houses. Came with a case, and had a 1/4-20 insert for a stand mount.
 
Rick R said:
Search eBay for an older model Radio Shack (aka, Realistic) SPL meter. They were quite accurate and are still in use today by post houses. Came with a case, and had a 1/4-20 insert for a stand mount.
Click to expand...

Yes. Even Skywalker Sound was using one when I was there. Of course theirs was a bit modified and they had the tools to calibrate it with high accuracy.
 
David Evans said:
Jeez... that sounds like a nightmare. Does that still happen now that DCPs have become pretty much standard for film festival projections?

About sound, to sum things up:

1 - Play pink noise at -20dbs
2 - Get SPL reading of the pink noise
3 - Adjust volume until a reading of 80 SPL

Is this it?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

It's not the media that was ever the issue, it's the playback. Festivals are hard because they are getting wildly varying quality of media. Even big festivals usually have a fair amount of lower budget films to show and you just never know.

But even comertial theatres have their issues. A lot of them tinker with sound levels to suit their audience. And now that they are playing ads that have been mixed a lot louder than your average film they tend to turn down the master to avoid complaints about the ad level. If they are good they turn it back up for the feature. But a lot of these places only have one projectionist covering a lot of theatres so they may not be around to make the adjustment.

Also some theatre owners are not... well very scrupulous... A friend and I went to see a film we had mixed in surround at a local theatre that listed it as playing in Dolby Digital. And... They were playing it back in stereo. We complained and the manager sair sometimes they just come that way. Now that is pure BS. The prints have the DD encoded ON the print so if it's not playing then the DD system is not working and you are getting the LtRt track. We probably would not have noticed if the LtRt were actually playing since you would still have surrounds, just not stereo surrounds, but this was all front stereo, so they didn't even have the decoder functioning.

I also went to see a show I worked on that should have been 5.1 and it was playing in MONO!

The irony of all this is that most people I know in the "biz" either go to screenings or watch off of DVD/ BlueRay at home because the quality is often better, and nobody is on their cel phone!
 
I think you are still mixed up with loudness, volume and dynamics. In this room I'w working in, I have to have the volume higher than I like because there is aircon I cannot turn off. Back in my edit suite it is quiet - very quiet, and I can mix lower. My ears adjust easily. They're also very good at hearing dynamic range, so with digital offering far more than I can hear, the only important thing is keeping the quietest thing you need the listener to hear as quiet the right distance from the loudest, and this means in most cases manual or electronics compression. As in, you mixing to keep the quiet a little louder and prevent the loud taking over - or you squeeze it in a compressor and if it's a good one, the dynamic range reduction is transparent. Gary mentioned that the delivery maximum level can vary - AFTER you have sorted the mix. Being old, I still find it odd to have peaks well below the maximum - but it genuinely doesn't matter when s/n is so good - you can boost the output to suit whatever spec they give you. If you mix at a quiet level, and lose the quiet bits, then your dynamic range was too wide, or you really are listening far too quiet.

On the speaker front - you do have monitors. Any speaker can be used for monitoring, even pretty poor ones. Good loudspeakers reveal more, but of course people don't listen on systems of this quality, so most of us monitor on speakers that work for most listeners. No point creating mixes with 20Hz sub bass if they have a system with a low cutoff at 60Hz - or worse, you accidentally have lots of sub bass your system doesn't reveal at all, but the listener does! When I o from my sound studio to the edit suit, I have an octave missing at the bottom and if I'm honest, a system that is focused to the mid-range. The important thing is knowing how your mixes sound on other systems, and once you know, you compensate. In my sound studio, I know a mix can easily become bass prominent if I don't just pull it back a tad in the mix. Your ears can cope with all this, with practice.
 
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