Sennheiser MKH 60/MKH 416

John Froton

John Froton

Well-known member
Can someone tell me what exactly are the advantages of the MKH 60 over the MKH 416?

I can see in the specs, that the 60 has:

Switchable roll-off filter and treble emphasis
Infrasonic cut-off filter (-18 dB/oct.)
Switchable pre-attenuation

EDIT --I am just assuming that the 60 goes much farther in producing the final sound that is wanted without having to do so much in mixing or in post --- but sadly, I am just guessing :(

I did read the stickies and listened to the shootout clips as well, but I would like to hear an experienced opinion on the advantages and if it is worth the extra cost for the 60 in your opinion.
 
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the 60 is much quieter mic /self noise , wider pattern then the 416 .i never used any of it on mic featurs except these moments i had to record very loud sound .
everything you can do on your mixer or lately in the post , dont full your self ,these features would increase or decrease dialog editing and shaping sound which would need pass dialog anyway.
and frankly i never liked it sound characteristics - so i sold my .
on the other hand the 416 was my favor mic and still i think it is the best
bang for the buck for long time operation microphone , i prefer it sounds to the 60 and have much more confidence that it would finish every job .
by the way i have one of my for sale (416 , 4 years old in almost new condition was mostly back up , since it doesnt work at all lately , i have another 6 different shotguns) or i can send you to a friend in London who have one 60 in grate condition 3 years old which looking for anew home .
the sound is very subjective thing - what my wax like may be not exactly what you prefer .
 
I had been thinking that I might want to go with the 416 but just wanted to find out more about the 60. I definately would not mind choosing the cheaper of the two for my budget.

Weeks ago I had been thinking of getting the AT4038a and an Octava but started looking at the 416 rather than the AT4038 in hopes to invest in what might be a more permanent and better mic as opposed to trading up and selling off later on down the road.

So many opinions and people asking for what is best, it is hard not to drive some of the helpful minds here crazy from repitition. However, I am reading and trying to be more informed and hoping to make the best choices for my needs.
 
Personally I'd rather have a 416 then a 4073a... but the 4073a (I'm sure this is the model you meant) is the best bang for the buck shotgun out there.

Recently I worked on a feature here in STL... pretty significant budget for the midwest... and the soundcrew was using 4073a. This soundguy insisted that the 4073a was better then any other shotgun.

Since I had no desire to argue with a brand new contact I just listened to his opinion while containing my own... but since I can speak freely here I'll tell you that the 416 would get my vote if the two mics were in the same price range.

I could live happily with any of the $1K+ guns though... and frankly, if I had to I could live with the 4073a.

If you have the budget for one of the top-end Sennheisers while still covering mount, screen, boom pole... then go for it and you won't be disappointed. I don't think either the 416 or mkh60 would be a bad choice. Personally I like having bass cut and sensitivity control at the mic... so I'd be leaning that way... but if you have a mixer then you have most of that benefit built in.

The one exception to that (in my experience) is that a less sensitive gun can work for interiors where a more sensitive gun can't... for example, the 4073a will NOT work in a lot of interiors... the very same interiors where a 416 will sound fine. Just like an ENG dynamic mic mainly hears a smaller bubble of sound... and then you can gain it up... a less sensitive gun can do the same thing and make some less-then-ideal situations passable. The converse of that is less reach at times that you want the longest reach possible.

So it's a trade-off... sometimes, i.e. outdoors, you often want the longest possible reach... other times, i.e. indoors when you don't have a hyper handy or you gotta' run 'n gun, you want a mic without a really long reach.

This is why I like the ability to change the characteristics of the mic... at the mic.

Gaining the mic up or down at the mixer doesn't get the same result... similar, but not the same. In a room with some echo for instance... enough to annoy but not enough to change the mic (or no time to change) you can pre-attenuate the mic at the mic, and then gain it up at the mixer and the echoes will be less then if you do all that control at the mixer.

As for the benefit of cutting bass at the mic versus cutting it at the mixer? I really don't know what to say there... but again, I like keeping my 70hz bass cut switched on at the mic... it's less chance of handling/wind noise at the mic and any cut under 80hz isn't doing anything to the dialog anyway.

Did you know that the 416 was supposed to be replaced by the mkh60? The only reason that didn't happen is because so many people love the sound and performance of the 416 that they woudn't let it die! True story! So there you go... if you have a mixer you may want to factor that in.

I should add that I had both the 416 and the 4073a and I liked the 416 best... but once you get into the highest level of guns like that you'll probably stop thinking about these choices and just use what you have... all the good guns work really well. How you use the mic will be more important then which mic you choose.
 
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I personally prefer the sound of the MKH-60 over the 416. I think it has a fuller, richer sound. The 416 is a great mic if that's all you have in your budget range. If you can afford a 60, I'd go with that. Having the 10db pad on the mic is a big difference to a pad at the mixer, especially in a noisy environment where the signal could distort at the source (mic). For instance a scene where 2 people are arguing and shouting would require that a 416 be moved a little further away than normal so as not to overload the signal at the mic. Sure the pad at the mixer will lower the input level to the mixer but if it is already distorted at the mic then you are just lowering a distorted signal. With the 60 you could just put the pad on and still keep it in the action.
 
Thanks Matt, your posts are always helpful. You are right, I was thinking of the 4073a and it looks like I may be going with the 4073 boom kit after all. My budget is limited right now and I am just starting to get back into business by purchasing other HD equipment as well.

Thank you as well ozduc. I had a feeling that what you said about the MKH 60 was true and that those advantages had to somewhat justify the higher cost.

Does anyone know if the boom kits here http://www.coffeysound.com/ are a good deal and good place to buy?

Also what would you think about the functionality of using the HVX200 camcorder and mics without a mixer? I am looking at probably not being able to afford a mixer until I make some profit back. Am I being reasonable here?

Thanks :)

EDIT -- Just for the info, I am looking at having an Oktava MK012A and the 4073 boom kit along with the AKG C 1000 mic I already own -- and having this as my starting sound kit with a soon to be purchased HVX200 camcorder. Any suggestions to improve upon this setup are welcome. I've always heard that if you can, use wired over wireless, so I feel that I can hold off on wireless lavs for now.

My history in doing video production has typically been mostly in working with voiceover narrative in documentary and corporate presentation types of projects. However, I do want to be capable as a camera hire out with good sound capabilities as well.
 
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Coffey sound is an excellent place to buy. John Coffey is a veteran mixer in hollywood so he knows the business of production very well. His staff are very knowledgeable and well trained and the support they offer is excellent.
 
I got my 60 back when they were first introduced. Up to then I had worked primarily with a 416. They are both fine mics and I like the control of the 60 but if I were to buy today I might consider the 416 just as well, depending on what the price difference is now-a-days.

I would take the extra couple of hundred and invest in better wireless, mixer, hyper, etc.

Cheers
 
ozduc said:
I personally prefer the sound of the MKH-60 over the 416. I think it has a fuller, richer sound. The 416 is a great mic if that's all you have in your budget range. If you can afford a 60, I'd go with that. Having the 10db pad on the mic is a big difference to a pad at the mixer, especially in a noisy environment where the signal could distort at the source (mic). For instance a scene where 2 people are arguing and shouting would require that a 416 be moved a little further away than normal so as not to overload the signal at the mic. Sure the pad at the mixer will lower the input level to the mixer but if it is already distorted at the mic then you are just lowering a distorted signal. With the 60 you could just put the pad on and still keep it in the action.
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except the screaming contest where people shouting directly to the mic , i dont think you can distort the mic it self .
racing car, shootings ,and jets take offs , or close placing to drums may be the only places you will need to hit the 10 db internal pad.
distortion which cause inside the mixer or camera preamp is the real reason to engage the pad , if your mixer or camera dont have internal pad (dvx or stupid eng 44 and like it ) you may find your self distorting .
for someone who work with proper equip it doesnt happen in real life .
 
Oleg 2 said:
except the screaming contest where people shouting directly to the mic , i dont think you can distort the mic it self .
racing car, shootings ,and jets take offs , or close placing to drums may be the only places you will need to hit the 10 db internal pad.
distortion which cause inside the mixer or camera preamp is the real reason to engage the pad , if your mixer or camera dont have internal pad (dvx or stupid eng 44 and like it ) you may find your self distorting .
for someone who work with proper equip it doesnt happen in real life .
Click to expand...

Oleg I'm not sure what you're refferring to when you say "proper equipment and real life" but in my real life working situations I have encountered people screaming on set, people in the pits yelling to get over the sound of race cars and motorcycles and having that 10db pad on the mic itself, has been a great asset. In this situation it wouldn't matter if you have a $3000 field mixer with a pad, as the distortion would occur at the mic before it gets to the mixer.
 
screaming on set or even in the pit dos not distort the mic , the motorcycles are .
read my post it was answer to your first one .
and yes, with proper mixer on the (screaming) stage you dont need 10 db down, at least me never used it in my life .
 
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